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[hotel21]

On the point of having conviction over one's statements I can see and sympathise with your point A.

There is a basic difficulty however in that when the treaty is ratified in its entirety the conditions are subsumed into European law.

Any one wishing to do something about it - including the Tories under DC - would find it all but impossible to achieve any satisfactory result short of withdrawing from the main framework of the EU.

This would prove very difficult and may result in a legal, practical and political problem of such proportion and complexity that the interests of this country could be placed in jeopardy for some time from that point.

It seems that we have been 'done up like a kipper' by the Brown regime and Brussels.

I would have thought however that DC should have considered the possibility of this happening as it has  - and if he didn't, one would have to question his judgement or the efficacy of the advice he was given and his ability to assess it.

The treaty is self-amending, in that it is now all but impossible to renegotiate any of its existing parts or any parts yet to come.

I would agree with Albs that the only way is to leave the EU. Sounds bizarre, I know, but until we do even that miniscule portion of our democracy that we still have will be eaten up by the superstate.

Even though this country may suffer financially (although I don't think we will), it is not all about money. Our previous generations fought over the freedom of people to determine our future thorugh our parliament. This Treaty is a backward step for democracy, not just for us, but for all the peoples of the Europe.

It is entirely illogical - and hypocritical - to devolve government to Scotland, Wales and (hesitatingly) Northern Ireland on the basis that this enhances democracy, yet surrender the power of the Westminster to the EU.

Thank you, Blair and Brown for selling our sovereignty for your own political advancement.
I'm off to UKIP. 

Wasn't it Tomstone T(h)eath who was wanting us to go to the EU (EEC as was) in the first place?   :-?

[Nickbat]

Wasn't it Tomstone T(h)eath who was wanting us to go to the EU (EEC as was) in the first place?   :-?

Yes, but the referendum that Heath introduced was for a purely economic trade area, like Efta, to which few had (or still have) objections. No one - other than a few politicans - realised that the seeds for a superstate were being planted. 

[Vamps]

On the point of having conviction over one's statements I can see and sympathise with your point A.

There is a basic difficulty however in that when the treaty is ratified in its entirety the conditions are subsumed into European law.

Any one wishing to do something about it - including the Tories under DC - would find it all but impossible to achieve any satisfactory result short of withdrawing from the main framework of the EU.

This would prove very difficult and may result in a legal, practical and political problem of such proportion and complexity that the interests of this country could be placed in jeopardy for some time from that point.

It seems that we have been 'done up like a kipper' by the Brown regime and Brussels.

I would have thought however that DC should have considered the possibility of this happening as it has  - and if he didn't, one would have to question his judgement or the efficacy of the advice he was given and his ability to assess it.

The treaty is self-amending, in that it is now all but impossible to renegotiate any of its existing parts or any parts yet to come.

I would agree with Albs that the only way is to leave the EU. Sounds bizarre, I know, but until we do even that miniscule portion of our democracy that we still have will be eaten up by the superstate.

Even though this country may suffer financially (although I don't think we will), it is not all about money. Our previous generations fought over the freedom of people to determine our future thorugh our parliament. This Treaty is a backward step for democracy, not just for us, but for all the peoples of the Europe.

It is entirely illogical - and hypocritical - to devolve government to Scotland, Wales and (hesitatingly) Northern Ireland on the basis that this enhances democracy, yet surrender the power of the Westminster to the EU.

Thank you, Blair and Brown for selling our sovereignty for your own political advancement.
I'm off to UKIP. 

Wasn't it Tomstone T(h)eath who was wanting us to go to the EU (EEC as was) in the first place?   :-?

I thought it was 'Thatcher' who started it.....

[hotel21]

I thought it was 'Thatcher' who started it.....

Thatcher or Heath, never mind....  As always, last one out/in gets the blame!! 

[Nickbat]

I thought it was 'Thatcher' who started it.....

Thatcher or Heath, never mind....  As always, last one out/in gets the blame!! 

T'was Heath.

"There is no question of any erosion of essential national sovereignty."

"There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears I need hardly say are completely unjustified"
      

Ted Heath, British Conservative Prime Minister and noted Europhile. White Paper on the implications of joining the EEC, July 1971. Proven by later release of documents to be outright lies.

"There will not be a blueprint for a Federal Europe"
      

Ted Heath, British Conservative Prime Minister and noted Europhile. Speech in the House of Commons, 25 February 1970 in run-up to EEC entry

.

"There is no danger of a single currency."
      

Ted Heath, British Conservative Prime Minister and noted Europhile. EEC membership information leaflet, 1975.

Sissons: "...the single currency, the United States of Europe: was that on your mind when you took Britain in?"

Heath: "Of course, Yes."
      

Ted Heath, British Conservative Prime Minister and noted europhile, and Peter Sissons, BBC journalist and presenter. Question Time with Peter Sissons, 1 November 1991.

http://www.liebreich.com/LDC/HTML/Europe/06-Democracy.html

[hotel21]

So, hypothetically speaking, irrespective of the party colour - trust no one?

And dont neccessarily jump on a passing bandwaggon and blame the current incumbents for the errors of the assorted predecessors....   

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

On the point of having conviction over one's statements I can see and sympathise with your point A.

There is a basic difficulty however in that when the treaty is ratified in its entirety the conditions are subsumed into European law.

Any one wishing to do something about it - including the Tories under DC - would find it all but impossible to achieve any satisfactory result short of withdrawing from the main framework of the EU.

This would prove very difficult and may result in a legal, practical and political problem of such proportion and complexity that the interests of this country could be placed in jeopardy for some time from that point.

It seems that we have been 'done up like a kipper' by the Brown regime and Brussels.

I would have thought however that DC should have considered the possibility of this happening as it has  - and if he didn't, one would have to question his judgement or the efficacy of the advice he was given and his ability to assess it.

Agreed.....almost inevitable.......poor judgement on his part. :-/ :-/

[Dishevelled Den]

So, hypothetically speaking, irrespective of the party colour - trust no one?

And dont neccessarily jump on a passing bandwaggon and blame the current incumbents for the errors of the assorted predecessors....   

I would have to disagree with you on that H. 

The present incumbents and their breakless predecessors willingly opened their administrative legs for whatever Brussels decided to put their way.

The resultant disease from that rape of democracy will pervade this country from this point onwards.


T Blair and G Brown have shown little regard for the sovereignty of this nation and have denied the electorate the right to have a say in such a fundamental shift of power.

They have been in office for nearly 12 years and at no time, as it now seems, were we ever to get the chance to have a say on this matter.

That being the case, I would submit that both this administration and the previous can be fairly and squarely put on the spot and condemned for cowardice and sharp practice the result of which has seen the sovereignty of this land discarded.

[Dishevelled Den]

On the point of having conviction over one's statements I can see and sympathise with your point A.

There is a basic difficulty however in that when the treaty is ratified in its entirety the conditions are subsumed into European law.

Any one wishing to do something about it - including the Tories under DC - would find it all but impossible to achieve any satisfactory result short of withdrawing from the main framework of the EU.

This would prove very difficult and may result in a legal, practical and political problem of such proportion and complexity that the interests of this country could be placed in jeopardy for some time from that point.

It seems that we have been 'done up like a kipper' by the Brown regime and Brussels.

I would have thought however that DC should have considered the possibility of this happening as it has  - and if he didn't, one would have to question his judgement or the efficacy of the advice he was given and his ability to assess it.

The treaty is self-amending, in that it is now all but impossible to renegotiate any of its existing parts or any parts yet to come.

I would agree with Albs that the only way is to leave the EU. Sounds bizarre, I know, but until we do even that miniscule portion of our democracy that we still have will be eaten up by the superstate.

Even though this country may suffer financially (although I don't think we will), it is not all about money. Our previous generations fought over the freedom of people to determine our future thorugh our parliament. This Treaty is a backward step for democracy, not just for us, but for all the peoples of the Europe.

It is entirely illogical - and hypocritical - to devolve government to Scotland, Wales and (hesitatingly) Northern Ireland on the basis that this enhances democracy, yet surrender the power of the Westminster to the EU.

Thank you, Blair and Brown for selling our sovereignty for your own political advancement.
I'm off to UKIP. 

That's the kernel of this whole sorry affair!

Self-serving bastards

Bah

[Martin_1962]

Is the gist of it that the traitors Blair & Brown have stuffed anyone else undoing the treaty?

Is this why Cameron has to give up?

If so Blair & Brown need stringing up.

Can't the Queen order something?

Isn't it illegal to hand powers to foreign control?

[Nickbat]

OK, here's my prophecy.

Daniel Hannan will jump ship and join UKIP and be elected leader.

Election in 2010: Hung government. Con/UKIP holding majority (could be either way), Labour third. LibDems obliterated.

I reserve the right to amend this prophecy as soon as it starts to look daft!   

[Nickbat]

Is the gist of it that the traitors Blair & Brown have stuffed anyone else undoing the treaty?

Is this why Cameron has to give up?

If so Blair & Brown need stringing up.

Can't the Queen order something?

Isn't it illegal to hand powers to foreign control?

Probably not under EU law. 

[Martin_1962]

Is the gist of it that the traitors Blair & Brown have stuffed anyone else undoing the treaty?

Is this why Cameron has to give up?

If so Blair & Brown need stringing up.

Can't the Queen order something?

Isn't it illegal to hand powers to foreign control?

Probably not under EU law. 

What about British law?

[Vamps]

Election before Christmas, councils are getting everything ready...
Conservatives have blown it, they have nothing to offer and it was them that took us into the EU

I am not at all sure where this will leave things....

[Dishevelled Den]

Is the gist of it that the traitors Blair & Brown have stuffed anyone else undoing the treaty?

Is this why Cameron has to give up?

If so Blair & Brown need stringing up.

Can't the Queen order something?

Isn't it illegal to hand powers to foreign control?

Probably not under EU law. 

What about British law?

...for British law read European law!