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Author Topic: The IRAQ inquiry Part2  (Read 2826 times)

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Dishevelled Den

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #30 on: 29 January 2010, 23:20:27 »

Quote
author=4A6F7C7C6F63595C69696B060 link=1264761147/23#23 date=1264804069]




1. But also many many victories have transpired which has resulted in our democracy still being intact.  Remember the SAS motto; he who dares wins!

2. I don't know where you were at the time Zulu, but I remember well that these issues were being broadcast by the politicians concerned regularly in the media.

3.  Blair was the PM.  He was the key politician to make the decision and take responsibility.  In power one can take full consultation, brief and recommendation by commitee or not.  But, when it comes to the final decision, it is the leader who must make it one way or another.


4.  No, not when you take into account Saddam's form - a first world war type engagement against Iran - wiping out his opposition - taking out the Kurds - invading Kuwait - running a family regime that was an aggressive dictatorship -  99% of the regional Arab nations feared him, as the west did.  Why?  Saddam represented a Hitler type character who had to be stopped before he became a mini version of that devil.

5. No, but they are measured in thousands; without such action  such as the Allied bombing raids on Germany, WWII would have continued longer, with possibly millions more killed.  Sometimes in life's political actions 1 life X unit has to be sacrificed to save1000 life X units.  Ask the Russian survivors of the Battle for Stalingrad and the onward battles to the centre of Berlin.  Russia, and Europe, is today what it is due to all of this type of sacrifice.


I am sure I do not have to remind you Zulu t

Quote

1  I know that motto very well and there is no doubt that audacious action can achieve the desired result in many cases.  However, precipitous action based on the same motivators of such self belief can also produce unwanted results, and I again speak of this from personal experience.

2  Indeed so E but I would suggest that the message was being fed to the MSM by Ministers via the Director of Communications in Downing Street - a person unelected at the heart of power and decision making.  If you can't accept how influential this man considered himself to be, read some of his correspondence with media representatives over on the Hutton Enquiry archives.
 
3  I would not be of the opinion for one moment that ex Premier Blair was alone  in taking that decision.  In decisions of such importance surely the final say must come from a consensus of opinion within those involved in the process.  In this case Mr Blair seems to have ignored advice and pressed ahead with his support for the action proposed by the United States - for whatever reason.  The suggestion of a tortured soul at the head of government struggling with life or death decisions does not ring quite true and fails to sit easily with the Blair that we all came to know so very well


4  Did the west fear him; I seem to remember that the Untied States considered him a very useful asset when he was in conflict with Iran - don't forget Don Rumsfeld met him face to face to develop this relationship?

Iran certainly didn't fear him, as both nations fought to a stalemate despite each suffering terrible losses.  Despite all the bluff from certain intelligence agencies Saddam’s reach was probably quite limited and while time was wasted on this, the real problem area between Pakistan and Afghanistan was being ignored.

5  That will always be a very subjective call E especially where the directors of military operations in theatre are concerned, the application of force on principle of might being right, irrespective of consequence, can sometimes fall far short of being the correct course of action to take.

Finally I know quite well about the waters being muddy many of us who had to tread through those waters still suffer the consequences - both physical and emotional
« Last Edit: 30 January 2010, 10:01:51 by Zulu77 »
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #31 on: 29 January 2010, 23:34:14 »

Quote
I admit my opinions are based on limited knowledge & total lack of experience of living in such conditions for which i consider myself fortunate. I don't have a solution, niether do the powers that be, i just think enough's enough, nothing more to be gained.

   Yes i do need some sleep!!! :y

 :y
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #32 on: 29 January 2010, 23:48:32 »

Quote
Quote
author=4A6F7C7C6F63595C69696B060 link=1264761147/23#23 date=1264804069]




1. But also many many victories have transpired which has resulted in our democracy still being intact.  Remember the SAS motto; he who dares wins!

2. I don't know where you were at the time Zulu, but I remember well that these issues were being broadcast by the politicians concerned regularly in the media.

3.  Blair was the PM.  He was the key politician to make the decision and take responsibility.  In power one can take full consultation, brief and recommendation by commitee or not.  But, when it comes to the final decision, it is the leader who must make it one way or another.


4.  No, not when you take into account Saddam's form - a first world war type engagement against Iran - wiping out his opposition - taking out the Kurds - invading Kuwait - running a family regime that was an aggressive dictatorship -  99% of the regional Arab nations feared him, as the west did.  Why?  Saddam represented a Hitler type character who had to be stopped before he became a mini version of that devil.

5. No, but they are measured in thousands; without such action  such as the Allied bombing raids on Germany, WWII would have continued longer, with possibly millions more killed.  Sometimes in life's political actions 1 life X unit has to be sacrificed to save1000 life X units.  Ask the Russian survivors of the Battle for Stalingrad and the onward battles to the centre of Berlin.  Russia, and Europe, is today what it is due to all of this type of sacrifice.


I am sure I do not have to remind you Zulu t

Quote

1  I know that motto very well and there is no doubt that audacious action can achieve the desired result in many cases.  However, precipitous action based on the same motivators of such self belief can also produce unwanted results, and I again speak of this from personal experience.

2  Indeed so E but I would suggest that the message was being fed to the MSM by Ministers via the Director of Communications in Downing Street - a person unelected at the heart of power and decision making.  If you can't accept how influential this man considered himself to be, read some of his correspondence with media representatives over on the Hutton Enquiry archives.
 
3  I would not be of the opinion that ex Premier Blair alone was for one moment in taking that decision.  In decisions of such importance surely the final say must come from a consensus of opinion within those involved in the process.  In this case Mr Blair seems to have ignored advice and pressed ahead with his support for the action proposed by the United States - for whatever reason.  The suggestion of a tortured soul at the head of government struggling with life or death decisions does not ring quite true and fails to sit easily with the Blair that we all came to know so very well


4  Did the west fear him; I seem to remember that the Untied States considered him a very useful asset when he was in conflict with Iran - don't forget Don Rumsfeld met him face to face to develop this relationship?

Iran certainly didn't fear him, as both nations fought to a stalemate despite each suffering terrible losses.  Despite all the bluff from certain intelligence agencies Saddam’s reach was probably quite limited and while time was wasted on this, the real problem area between Pakistan and Afghanistan was being ignored.

5  That will always be a very subjective call E especially where the directors of military operations in theatre are concerned, the application of force on principle of might being right, irrespective of consequence, can sometimes fall far short of being the correct course of action to take.

Finally I know quite well about the waters being muddy many of us who had to tread through those waters still suffer the consequences - both physical and emotional

 :y :y :-X
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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #33 on: 30 January 2010, 01:44:26 »

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terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired Too little too late. Jeremy Drone embraced this today because he's duller than grey paint. Saddam & his sons needed sorting. We did that, now it's illegal so we should'nt have.
   This will never be resolved because of the feelings on each side who both have a point but it's done now right or wrong so can everyone including the press/media stop dragging it out please?


   Yes i sympathise with the lives lost in the call of duty, they're ALL tougher men & women than i am but it's pointless hounding his "Tonyness" or that Bush pillock because you'll NEVER get a straight answer.
    6 hrs wasted chat today... Tony evaded everything perfectly & we're no further ahead. Nothing else will happen.
   Wasted news. ::)

At the tax payers expense, the rest of the arguments I am not getting into...... :(
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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #34 on: 30 January 2010, 08:57:31 »

I was just thinking, what other country would call their ex-leader in to justify going to war and hold that meeting live in public? Amazing.

and Teflon Tony was good, very good but i don't care why we went to war all i see is the end of a brutal regime and vast oil resources secured and maybe i'm being heartless but its a price worth paying. our troops joined the armed forces in the almost certain knowledge they would get to see action (Britain has been involved in more conflicts since the 2nd WW than any other nation on the planet - so i'd say joining the British Forces was as close to a guarantee of action as you're likely to get - it's the job they do and they do it better than anyone)

my only wish is that Blair had said from the outset "look, we (well mainly the US) need oil, 9/11 gives us a great excuse to secure vast quantities, I know Al-Queda were responsible and Saddam won't let Al-Queda into his country so the link isn't even tenuous - there isn't a link! But let's be honest, he's a bit of a C U Next Tuesday isn't he? So what do you say we roll in and kill the bar-steward and his nut-job sons?"  :y


« Last Edit: 30 January 2010, 09:00:02 by bannjaxx »
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Moos3h

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #35 on: 30 January 2010, 08:59:36 »

Blair's whole performance was as slick as we've come to expect from someone who will know all the questions, and know how to sound like he's answering them honestly.

This whole thing is a waste of time and money, most of us KNOW the thing was illegal, but you'll never convince that grinning tit that he was wrong.  That's just how fanatics are.
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jereboam

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #36 on: 30 January 2010, 10:23:37 »

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The most valuable commodity in the world is hindsight.

Of course, many have been slaughtered in various wars but, equally, it must be said that many of them laid down their lives that future generations should be free.

I really don't think that revisiting Hiroshima or Dresden is particularly useful. I don't think there are many on here that experienced WWII. If you lost loved ones during the Blitz, you'd have no hesitation in supporting the Dresden raids.

The problem, as always, is down to power and the corruption thereof. If there had been no Hitler, there would have been no WWII. If there had been no Saddam, there would not have been the Gulf Wars. The problem is that when fanatics are able to assume power, violence will ensue. To ensure peace in the future, it is necessary to maintain power with the people. That is why the political elites of this day and age are so dangerous. They may not look like Hitler or Saddam or Pol Pot, but when they assume total executive power, the ramifications are hugely frightening. The current disconnect between the masses and the political class is therefore a worry.

That said, sometimes wars are just necessary. It's a fact of life. The same logic applies, albeit on a much simpler level, when law enforcement officers are required to resort to violence themselves when dealing with psychopaths. Violence is rarely the answer, but sometimes it is the only valid response.

Just my two-penneth.  ;)      

I agree with almost all you're saying here.  I don't  have any sympathy for the point of view that says the Dresden bombing was a war crime, ignoring what was done to Coventry.  I can't say I lost loved ones in the blitz, because I was born six months after the war in Europe finished.  But my family come from Holland, and I'd have a lot more relatives today if almost the entire Dutch contingent hadn't been carted off to the concentration camps. 

Nasty things happen in wars.  But once the war is over, the world needs to get on with the peace.  I'm appalled by the fact that "war criminals" are being prosecuted 60 years after the war - what's the point?  And while I do have a lot of sympathy for the families of the service personnel who lost their lives, I must point out that these people joined the Armed Forces, not the village flower arranging society.  To a complete outsider with no military experience whatsoever, it looks to me like getting killed in a war is an occupational hazard for soldiers, and no amount of bitching about the reasons for the war is going to change that.

The Iraq war was probably inevitable.  Saddam made to many enemies both internally and externally.  If the USA and UK had not intervened when they did, I think it's quite likely that Israel would eventually have taken some sort of action, and that would have been a disaster on a much grander scale. 

Let me make it clear - I absolutely detest Tony Blair.  But watching the news last night, I realised that I detest the rent-a-mob outside the hearing building even more.  And I detest Gordon Brown even more than that.  I don't think Blair has been honest, I don't think that we yet know, or will ever know, the real reasons for his actions, but I don't think there was any way the world could have avoided what happened. 

Sorry - too many points - not very coherent.  I'll do better next time. :)
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #37 on: 30 January 2010, 12:13:31 »

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The most valuable commodity in the world is hindsight.

Of course, many have been slaughtered in various wars but, equally, it must be said that many of them laid down their lives that future generations should be free.

I really don't think that revisiting Hiroshima or Dresden is particularly useful. I don't think there are many on here that experienced WWII. If you lost loved ones during the Blitz, you'd have no hesitation in supporting the Dresden raids.

The problem, as always, is down to power and the corruption thereof. If there had been no Hitler, there would have been no WWII. If there had been no Saddam, there would not have been the Gulf Wars. The problem is that when fanatics are able to assume power, violence will ensue. To ensure peace in the future, it is necessary to maintain power with the people. That is why the political elites of this day and age are so dangerous. They may not look like Hitler or Saddam or Pol Pot, but when they assume total executive power, the ramifications are hugely frightening. The current disconnect between the masses and the political class is therefore a worry.

That said, sometimes wars are just necessary. It's a fact of life. The same logic applies, albeit on a much simpler level, when law enforcement officers are required to resort to violence themselves when dealing with psychopaths. Violence is rarely the answer, but sometimes it is the only valid response.

Just my two-penneth.  ;)      

I agree with almost all you're saying here.  I don't  have any sympathy for the point of view that says the Dresden bombing was a war crime, ignoring what was done to Coventry.  I can't say I lost loved ones in the blitz, because I was born six months after the war in Europe finished.  But my family come from Holland, and I'd have a lot more relatives today if almost the entire Dutch contingent hadn't been carted off to the concentration camps. 

Nasty things happen in wars.  But once the war is over, the world needs to get on with the peace.  I'm appalled by the fact that "war criminals" are being prosecuted 60 years after the war - what's the point?  And while I do have a lot of sympathy for the families of the service personnel who lost their lives, I must point out that these people joined the Armed Forces, not the village flower arranging society.  To a complete outsider with no military experience whatsoever, it looks to me like getting killed in a war is an occupational hazard for soldiers, and no amount of bitching about the reasons for the war is going to change that

The Iraq war was probably inevitable  Saddam made to many enemies both internally and externally.  If the USA and UK had not intervened when they did, I think it's quite likely that Israel would eventually have taken some sort of action, and that would have been a disaster on a much grander scale. 
Let me make it clear - I absolutely detest Tony Blair.  But watching the news last night, I realised that I detest the rent-a-mob outside the hearing building even more.  And I detest Gordon Brown even more than that.  I don't think Blair has been honest, I don't think that we yet know, or will ever know, the real reasons for his actions, but I don't think there was any way the world could have avoided what happened. 

Sorry - too many points - not very coherent.  I'll do better next time. :)


Not necessarily in its present manifestation J.  I would have thought that a regional conflict was the more likely result following a response by Israel to the perceived threat posed by the Iranian nuclear programme - although the increased threat levels posed by some in Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinian territories could well have produce the same response.

Saddam's reach as far as Israel is concerned was, I believe, modest.  I feel that the United States had a clear intention of establishing a powerbase in the region to be better placed if they needed respond to the looming threat from Iran.  As a result, the excuse for invasion offered to the United Nations probably bore no relation to the true motivation of the US administration.

What has changed? – Yes, Saddam has been removed from power but Iraq has been all but destroyed and, in the absence of the very large US security presence there at the moment, would in all probability descend into outright anarchy with dire regional consequences.

The British presence unfortunately doesn't seem to have had much impact when compared to that of the US commitment.  In the end a retreat from Basra seems to be the culmination of our contribution.  Such is the intractability of engaging in asymmetric warfare even the US forces have eventually been fought to a stand still.

This seems to have been an ill-conceived operation, poorly planned for the long term and constructed mendaciously by some hawkish minds within the then US administration.  There was, in my view, no need for British involvement at all.


Concerning war crimes there is every point in expecting people to answer for their actions as I feel that it’s unhealthy for society to ignore such activity – if we do, is there any point in having a system of justice?


« Last Edit: 30 January 2010, 13:12:57 by Zulu77 »
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Nickbat

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #38 on: 30 January 2010, 13:17:07 »

I think one point overlooked is that there were many people who believed that the anti-Saddam faction in Iraq was powerful enough to fill the void after the fall of the Ba'ath Party's leader.

I clearly recall the glee with which I think most people - certainly here in the West - greeted the live televised pictures of Saddam's statue being demolished by Iraqi citizens.

It is not unreasonable, in my view, to suspect that there were many politicians in the West that also thought the anti-Saddam forces would gather swiftly and bring stability in the aftermath. It's all very well and good to say that it was an ill-conceived adventure, but the subsequent interference of Iran and Al-Quaeda took many by surprise.

As I said, hindsight is a very valuable commodity.
« Last Edit: 30 January 2010, 13:17:57 by Nickbat »
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #39 on: 30 January 2010, 14:18:38 »

Quote
I think one point overlooked is that there were many people who believed that the anti-Saddam faction in Iraq was powerful enough to fill the void after the fall of the Ba'ath Party's leader.

I clearly recall the glee with which I think most people - certainly here in the West - greeted the live televised pictures of Saddam's statue being demolished by Iraqi citizens.

It is not unreasonable, in my view, to suspect that there were many politicians in the West that also thought the anti-Saddam forces would gather swiftly and bring stability in the aftermath. It's all very well and good to say that it was an ill-conceived adventure, but the subsequent interference of Iran and Al-Quaeda took many by surprise.

As I said, hindsight is a very valuable commodity.


I don't necessarily agree Nick, having regard to the recent conflict between the two nations, the possibility of an Iranian move in the aftermath of regime change within Iraq would certainly have been taken into account - to have disregarded that possibility would have been reckless. 

An assessment would also have been made of the likelihood of the new regime having the expertise and organisation to assume to role of government in the light of so many years of oppression under Saddam.  In planning, the factional nature of the various groups - and their newly found freedom - would also have been assessed, again, failure to have done so would have been asking for trouble.

Hindsight should have been employed before this operation was engaged, as it would undoubtedly have shown that this region has a habit of bringing grief to those who interfere by way of military force.  This is why I regarded this war – and still do – as an ill-conceived operation in the face of all that was known or should have known about the actors in the region.

I doesn’t appear to me that such doe-eyed confidence was employed by the United States in the expectation of a smooth transition of power - the hope was certainly there - but the possibility of the operation going tits-up as a result of some of the factors I have mentioned would certainly have been taken into account.

On foot of all that, I still maintain that this war was wrong-headed in its implementation and there was no need for our country to become involved with the United States in the way we did. 

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Nickbat

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #40 on: 30 January 2010, 14:45:57 »

Quote
Quote
I think one point overlooked is that there were many people who believed that the anti-Saddam faction in Iraq was powerful enough to fill the void after the fall of the Ba'ath Party's leader.

I clearly recall the glee with which I think most people - certainly here in the West - greeted the live televised pictures of Saddam's statue being demolished by Iraqi citizens.

It is not unreasonable, in my view, to suspect that there were many politicians in the West that also thought the anti-Saddam forces would gather swiftly and bring stability in the aftermath. It's all very well and good to say that it was an ill-conceived adventure, but the subsequent interference of Iran and Al-Quaeda took many by surprise.

As I said, hindsight is a very valuable commodity.


I don't necessarily agree Nick, having regard to the recent conflict between the two nations, the possibility of an Iranian move in the aftermath of regime change within Iraq would certainly have been taken into account - to have disregarded that possibility would have been reckless. 

An assessment would also have been made of the likelihood of the new regime having the expertise and organisation to assume to role of government in the light of so many years of oppression under Saddam.  In planning, the factional nature of the various groups - and their newly found freedom - would also have been assessed, again, failure to have done so would have been asking for trouble.

Hindsight should have been employed before this operation was engaged, as it would undoubtedly have shown that this region has a habit of bringing grief to those who interfere by way of military force.  This is why I regarded this war – and still do – as an ill-conceived operation in the face of all that was known or should have known about the actors in the region.

I doesn’t appear to me that such doe-eyed confidence was employed by the United States in the expectation of a smooth transition of power - the hope was certainly there - but the possibility of the operation going tits-up as a result of some of the factors I have mentioned would certainly have been taken into account.

On foot of all that, I still maintain that this war was wrong-headed in its implementation and there was no need for our country to become involved with the United States in the way we did. 



I wouldn't vehemently disagree with what you say, Zulu. Of course, the aftermath would have been considered, but I believe that there may have been excessive optimism with regard to the anti-Ba'ath Party factions. Unfortunately, when you have years of dictatorship, opposition is often unable to be co-ordinated and so, when the suppression is removed, there is no cohesive force. Of course, as you rightly point out, the Middle East is full of tribal factions - often supported by outside states, so there was always a good chance that it was going to go tits-up as you say. Since I believe the casus belli was regime change, maybe that single goal blinded the decision makers enough to make them underestimate the potential downsides.

Either way, it was probably foolish to go to war (though one must necessarily wonder how history would have turned out if Saddam had remained in power), and it was foolish not to have given more weight to the aftermath - if, indeed, any real attention was paid to that. If that is the case, then I seriously think that the US administration was naive to the point of sheer recklessness.
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #41 on: 30 January 2010, 14:54:22 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
I think one point overlooked is that there were many people who believed that the anti-Saddam faction in Iraq was powerful enough to fill the void after the fall of the Ba'ath Party's leader.

I clearly recall the glee with which I think most people - certainly here in the West - greeted the live televised pictures of Saddam's statue being demolished by Iraqi citizens.

It is not unreasonable, in my view, to suspect that there were many politicians in the West that also thought the anti-Saddam forces would gather swiftly and bring stability in the aftermath. It's all very well and good to say that it was an ill-conceived adventure, but the subsequent interference of Iran and Al-Quaeda took many by surprise.

As I said, hindsight is a very valuable commodity.


I don't necessarily agree Nick, having regard to the recent conflict between the two nations, the possibility of an Iranian move in the aftermath of regime change within Iraq would certainly have been taken into account - to have disregarded that possibility would have been reckless. 

An assessment would also have been made of the likelihood of the new regime having the expertise and organisation to assume to role of government in the light of so many years of oppression under Saddam.  In planning, the factional nature of the various groups - and their newly found freedom - would also have been assessed, again, failure to have done so would have been asking for trouble.

Hindsight should have been employed before this operation was engaged, as it would undoubtedly have shown that this region has a habit of bringing grief to those who interfere by way of military force.  This is why I regarded this war – and still do – as an ill-conceived operation in the face of all that was known or should have known about the actors in the region.

I doesn’t appear to me that such doe-eyed confidence was employed by the United States in the expectation of a smooth transition of power - the hope was certainly there - but the possibility of the operation going tits-up as a result of some of the factors I have mentioned would certainly have been taken into account.

On foot of all that, I still maintain that this war was wrong-headed in its implementation and there was no need for our country to become involved with the United States in the way we did. 



I wouldn't vehemently disagree with what you say, Zulu. Of course, the aftermath would have been considered, but I believe that there may have been excessive optimism with regard to the anti-Ba'ath Party factions. Unfortunately, when you have years of dictatorship, opposition is often unable to be co-ordinated and so, when the suppression is removed, there is no cohesive force. Of course, as you rightly point out, the Middle East is full of tribal factions - often supported by outside states, so there was always a good chance that it was going to go tits-up as you say. Since I believe the casus belli was regime change, maybe that single goal blinded the decision makers enough to make them underestimate the potential downsides.

Either way, it was probably foolish to go to war (though one must necessarily wonder how history would have turned out if Saddam had remained in power), and it was foolish not to have given more weight to the aftermath - if, indeed, any real attention was paid to that. If that is the case, then I seriously think that the US administration was naive to the point of sheer recklessness.

That's all we can do now Nick - ponder on what might have been.

Irrespective of intent, the nett result has been a disaster for the region, the United States and of course this country. :(

I'm  just about to comment on a very important observation you made in an earler post............v
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Nickbat

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #42 on: 30 January 2010, 15:01:39 »

I have just read this interesting view on the subject from Norman Tebbit:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/normantebbit/100024183/the-invasion-of-iraq-was-legal-instead-chilcot-should-be-investigating-the-criminal-bungling-that-followed/

Some interesting points, well made, methinks. :y

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #43 on: 30 January 2010, 15:48:18 »

Quote
The most valuable commodity in the world is hindsight.

Of course, many have been slaughtered in various wars but, equally, it must be said that many of them laid down their lives that future generations should be free.

I really don't think that revisiting Hiroshima or Dresden is particularly useful. I don't think there are many on here that experienced WWII. If you lost loved ones during the Blitz, you'd have no hesitation in supporting the Dresden raids.

The problem, as always, is down to power and the corruption thereof. If there had been no Hitler, there would have been no WWII. If there had been no Saddam, there would not have been the Gulf Wars. The problem is that when fanatics are able to assume power, violence will ensue. To ensure peace in the future, it is necessary to maintain power with the people. That is why the political elites of this day and age are so dangerous. They may not look like Hitler or Saddam or Pol Pot, but when they assume total executive power, the ramifications are hugely frightening. The current disconnect between the masses and the political class is therefore a worry.
That said, sometimes wars are just necessary. It's a fact of life. The same logic applies, albeit on a much simpler level, when law enforcement officers are required to resort to violence themselves when dealing with psychopaths. Violence is rarely the answer, but sometimes it is the only valid response.

Just my two-penneth.  ;)      


This is a very imortant obversation Nick :y

This disconnect has been established over the recent past and it will be exploited by those very groups that stand to profit most from this undesirable fact.

The current fuss over AGW, the emphasis on the collective nature of the EU and the attempt by the United Nations to increase its relevance, all afford the possibility of total executive power being abused in this way.

Add in the attempt to expand law enforcement powers to a world-wide status and you have the makings of a new-order dictatorship that will make all that has gone before pale into insignificance.
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: The IRAQ inquiry Part2
« Reply #44 on: 30 January 2010, 15:58:32 »

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I have just read this interesting view on the subject from Norman Tebbit:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/normantebbit/100024183/the-invasion-of-iraq-was-legal-instead-chilcot-should-be-investigating-the-criminal-bungling-that-followed/

Some interesting points, well made, methinks. :y




Indeed so Nick, it not only suggests to me that our government should have foreseen the awaiting chasm but that they were also too busy being blinded by the light of vainglory.
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