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[albitz]

That isnt really the quesion at all Cem.Isreal is an established country which is receognised in interntional law etc. but their neighbours wont accept this and wish to wipe then off the map. That is what they are defending themselves against.

[cem_devecioglu]

That isnt really the quesion at all Cem.Isreal is an established country which is receognised in interntional law etc. but their neighbours wont accept this and wish to wipe then off the map. That is what they are defending themselves against.

 

they are defending..  :-?

who got the nukes, warplanes,tanks,artillery, technology, big brother behind..none of those are existent in Arab countries..

who surrounded palestine with Berlin walls so no one can get out..

problem is: I'm powerful so I'll do what I want..

come on Albs..

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

They have attacked and terrorised Israel for years, and the Israelis wont lie down and give in. They are surrounded by enemies, but will do whatever it takes to stop themselves being overrun by these Arab terrorists. RESPECT.
They wont take any notice of the outside world and nor should they. It was spineless politiicans in Westminster worrying about the outside world that allowed the murder  and mayhem to continue in Northern Ireland for 30 years, when they should have allowed British security forces to put a stop to it much earlier and prevent so much slaughter of many innocent peple.

......Israel is a superpower.....Palestine is a stoneage country......a few kids with stones and a handful of antiquated pre WW2 rockets which can barely leave the ground. Hardly equal odds.... :-/ :-/ 

[STMO999]

I'm not going to get involved in this discussion per se, as it is futile. What I will say, though, is that the Israeli government is not the Israeli people, just as the British government does not represent the views of a significant portion of the population. This goes for Turkey, Palestine and almost any other country you care to mention.
There are anti-goverment protests in Israel at the moment and, if change is to come about, it will come from where it always comes from....within.

[albitz]

If the palestinians and their backers stop attacking Israel, Im sure Israel will leave them alone.
But they should have learned by now that if they give Israel grief they will get it back tenfold.

[cem_devecioglu]

If the palestinians and their backers stop attacking Isreal, Im sure Isreal will leave them alone.
But they should have learned by now that if they give Isreal grief they will get it back tenfold.

dont be sure, you will loose

[eliteomegaman]

Ok i've sat here on & off for the last 12hrs & seen ''discussions??!!'' between the Lizzie & Cem show 

We are all entitled to our opinion & views be them right or wrong - that is our entitlement 

As i have already pointed out I AM JEWISH & proud of it!!

What has happened to-day with relation to the deaths IS unacceptable but it could have been avoided had the warnings by Israel for the past 'couple of days' been heeded ..... but alas it wasn't & i'm sure no-one could envisage the outcome

Some-one mentioned that Israel should have waited for the intervention of the UN but by the time the UN had sat down & discussed what actions should be taken w.w.3 could have broken out! When anyone mentions the UN i keep on thinking of what they achieved in the Iraq war - they're as much use as a chocolate fire-guard!!

For those of you that have sympathy with the Palestinians with regard to the Gaza Strip and why Israel is standing its ground may i please offer u the following ..........

Extract from 'Wikipedia' -

Mutual recognition -

The Oslo peace process was based upon Israel ceding authority to the Palestinians to run their own political and economic affairs. In return, it was agreed that Palestinians would promote peaceful co-existence, renounce violence and promote recognition of Israel among their own people.[106] Despite Yasser Arafat's official renunciation of terrorism and recognition of Israel, some Palestinian groups continue to practice and advocate violence against civilians and do not recognize Israel as a legitimate political entity.[107]

Palestinians state that their ability to spread acceptance of Israel was greatly hampered by Israeli restrictions on Palestinian political freedoms, economic freedoms, civil liberties, and quality of life. Many feel that their own opposition to Israel was justified by Israel's apparent stifling of any genuine Palestinian political and economic development.[108]

It is widely felt among Israelis that Palestinians did not in fact promote acceptance of Israel's right to exist.[109][110] One of Israel's major reservations in regards to granting Palestinian sovereignty is its concern that there is not genuine public support by Palestinians for co-existence and elimination of terrorism and incitement.[109][110][111] Some Palestinian groups, notably Fatah, the political party founded by PLO leaders, claim they are willing to foster co-existence if Palestinians are steadily given more political rights and autonomy. In 2006, Hamas won a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council, where it remains the majority party. While Hamas has openly stated in the past that it completely opposed Israel's right to exist, and its charter states this,[107][112] there is evidence that its position may have softened by 2006.[113][114] However, Israel contended in 2007 that Hamas has refused to recognize Israel in any valid way, and that it supported recent rocket attacks on Israel.[115][116] In June 2009, Hamas leaders met with former US President Jimmy Carter, and said that Hamas does not in any way recognize Israel.[117]

Israel cites past concessions—such as Israel’s disengagement from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, which did not lead to a reduction of attacks and rocket fire against Israel—as an example of the Palestinian people not accepting Israel as a state. Palestinian groups and Israeli Human Rights organizations (namely B'Tselem) have pointed out that while the military occupation in Gaza was ended, the Israeli government still retained control of Gaza's airspace, territorial water, and borders, legally making it still under Israeli control. They also say that mainly thanks to these restrictions, the Palestinian quality of life in the Gaza Strip has not improved since the Israeli withdrawal. Furthermore, given that the Israeli army has run incursions into the Gaza Strip on various occasions, closed off its borders, and placed an embargo on the region, the Gazan economy has since gone into free fall. This has led and continues to result in warnings of the Palestinian population becoming more radicalized unless conditions improve.
__________________________________________________

Please feel free to comment on this

By the way, its nice to see other fellow wej on this forum 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Ok i've sat here on & off for the last 12hrs & seen ''discussions??!!'' between the Lizzie & Cem show 

We are all entitled to our opinion & views be them right or wrong - that is our entitlement 

As i have already pointed out I AM JEWISH & proud of it!!

What has happened to-day with relation to the deaths IS unacceptable but it could have been avoided had the warnings by Israel for the past 'couple of days' been heeded ..... but alas it wasn't & i'm sure no-one could envisage the outcome

Some-one mentioned that Israel should have waited for the intervention of the UN but by the time the UN had sat down & discussed what actions should be taken w.w.3 could have broken out! When anyone mentions the UN i keep on thinking of what they achieved in the Iraq war - they're as much use as a chocolate fire-guard!!

For those of you that have sympathy with the Palestinians with regard to the Gaza Strip and why Israel is standing its ground may i please offer u the following ..........

Extract from 'Wikipedia' -

Mutual recognition -

The Oslo peace process was based upon Israel ceding authority to the Palestinians to run their own political and economic affairs. In return, it was agreed that Palestinians would promote peaceful co-existence, renounce violence and promote recognition of Israel among their own people.[106] Despite Yasser Arafat's official renunciation of terrorism and recognition of Israel, some Palestinian groups continue to practice and advocate violence against civilians and do not recognize Israel as a legitimate political entity.[107]

Palestinians state that their ability to spread acceptance of Israel was greatly hampered by Israeli restrictions on Palestinian political freedoms, economic freedoms, civil liberties, and quality of life. Many feel that their own opposition to Israel was justified by Israel's apparent stifling of any genuine Palestinian political and economic development.[108]

It is widely felt among Israelis that Palestinians did not in fact promote acceptance of Israel's right to exist.[109][110] One of Israel's major reservations in regards to granting Palestinian sovereignty is its concern that there is not genuine public support by Palestinians for co-existence and elimination of terrorism and incitement.[109][110][111] Some Palestinian groups, notably Fatah, the political party founded by PLO leaders, claim they are willing to foster co-existence if Palestinians are steadily given more political rights and autonomy. In 2006, Hamas won a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council, where it remains the majority party. While Hamas has openly stated in the past that it completely opposed Israel's right to exist, and its charter states this,[107][112] there is evidence that its position may have softened by 2006.[113][114] However, Israel contended in 2007 that Hamas has refused to recognize Israel in any valid way, and that it supported recent rocket attacks on Israel.[115][116] In June 2009, Hamas leaders met with former US President Jimmy Carter, and said that Hamas does not in any way recognize Israel.[117]

Israel cites past concessions—such as Israel’s disengagement from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, which did not lead to a reduction of attacks and rocket fire against Israel—as an example of the Palestinian people not accepting Israel as a state. Palestinian groups and Israeli Human Rights organizations (namely B'Tselem) have pointed out that while the military occupation in Gaza was ended, the Israeli government still retained control of Gaza's airspace, territorial water, and borders, legally making it still under Israeli control. They also say that mainly thanks to these restrictions, the Palestinian quality of life in the Gaza Strip has not improved since the Israeli withdrawal. Furthermore, given that the Israeli army has run incursions into the Gaza Strip on various occasions, closed off its borders, and placed an embargo on the region, the Gazan economy has since gone into free fall. This has led and continues to result in warnings of the Palestinian population becoming more radicalized unless conditions improve.
__________________________________________________

Please feel free to comment on this

By the way, its nice to see other fellow wej on this forum 

Very true, and I hope I haven't suggested otherwise! 8-) 8-)

The rest is very fair comment, and maybe this 'action' by Israel will wake the USA up to end the illegal embargo of Gaza and give the Palestinians their rights..  That way they will then have no excuse to be aggressive towards Israel, and likewise Israel can leave the situation alone with no more strong arm military tactics

[albitz]

Just been watching footage of this on the news.The Israelis were out numbered, one of them was thrown overboard from the top deck. You could see the people on the boat had soldiers on the ground beating hell out of them with bars. If I was in their position and had a gun I would have opened fire the same as they did.

[eliteomegaman]

I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine later.

We certainly do & I'm one of them who has strong & informed opinions on Israels' obnoxious behaviour & continous disregard for the rights of the Palestinians

Indeed yet again PF, as I previously mentioned in this thread I am of a Jewish family background, although admittedly not a practising one now, and I feel the same way.

Alexi Sayer, a Jew, also protested today in Whithall and on ITV stated clearly the action taken by Israel has nothing to do with being Jewish in the outside world, and I rteckon thousands/millions of Jews feel as he does and you PF

So Lizzie babe  tell me more as i'm curious about u!!  (not bi-curious i hasten to add!!) 

[eliteomegaman]

Just been watching footage of this on the news.The Israelis were out numbered, one of them was thrown overboard from the top deck. You could see the people on the boat had soldiers on the ground beating hell out of them with bars. If I was in their position and had a gun I would have opened fire the same as they did.

 

Have been looking at various international papers & saw this in 'Reuters' ...........

"We were prepared to face human rights activists and we found people who came for war," the marine told reporters.

Yes i agree that the marines were too trigger happy but as Albs has just said - being outnumbered & having the crap beaten out of u then as a soldier instinct kicks in & u do what you are trained to do ....... what a pity it wasn't plastic bullets or tear gas or anything that wouldn't have ended up with the death of these pro-Palestinians 

[albitz]

Thre have been over 8000 rockets fired into Israel from Gaza over the years. Little wonder that the Israelis want to see what is on board boats headed for Gaza.

[Nickbat]

I know I said I was "out"of this thread, but needs must and I feel the need to post this, from Conservative Home blogs:

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2010/05/william-hague-needs-to-issue-a-new-statement-on-the-flotilla-incident.html

Summary:

1.  The activists on the boat were preparing for violence and described martyrdom as a "happy ending"

2. The soldiers were seriously assaulted

3.  This was not "piracy" or anything of the sort

4.  The Israelis main mistake may have been to use insufficient force initially

I post this as a subject for discussion. It could be, in my mind, that this whole thing was deliberately planned for a specific aim: not humanitarian relief for the Palestinians, but a successful attempt to whip up anti-Israeli feeling. The cynic in me would say that the planners would have figured that a few deaths were worth the PR (indeed, they have enhanced the PR). 

Interesting indeed.

[eliteomegaman]

Interesting reply Nickbat 

This 'peace loving' flotilla of pro-Palestinians had been warned last week NOT to sail into Gaza as it was ILLEGAL but decided in their wisdom to make a stance -

This was taken from The New York Times May 27th 2010.....

Maj. Gen. Eitan Dangot, the Israeli military’s chief liaison with the Palestinian-controlled territories, said Israel’s policy was very clear. Briefing a group of foreign reporters in Tel Aviv this week, he said that Israel had offered the activists the chance to unload their cargo at Ashdod. Israel, he said, would be willing to transfer it, after inspection, to Gaza. But he added, “We will not allow ships to come to Gaza while Hamas is in control there.”

In a news statement issued by Israel’s Foreign Ministry this week, Sarah Weiss Maudi, the ministry’s expert on maritime and humanitarian law, said the maritime blockade was in force “because Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime” in Gaza. Hamas, she continued, “has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel proper with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza by various routes, including the sea.”

[Nickbat]

Interesting reply Nickbat 

This 'peace loving' flotilla of pro-Palestinians had been warned last week NOT to sail into Gaza as it was ILLEGAL but decided in their wisdom to make a stance -

This was taken from The New York Times May 27th 2010.....

Maj. Gen. Eitan Dangot, the Israeli military’s chief liaison with the Palestinian-controlled territories, said Israel’s policy was very clear. Briefing a group of foreign reporters in Tel Aviv this week, he said that Israel had offered the activists the chance to unload their cargo at Ashdod. Israel, he said, would be willing to transfer it, after inspection, to Gaza. But he added, “We will not allow ships to come to Gaza while Hamas is in control there.”

In a news statement issued by Israel’s Foreign Ministry this week, Sarah Weiss Maudi, the ministry’s expert on maritime and humanitarian law, said the maritime blockade was in force “because Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime” in Gaza. Hamas, she continued, “has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel proper with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza by various routes, including the sea.”

Precisely, Eliteomegaman.

Unfortunately, Israel is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand it has a legitimate right to defend itself against known smuggling of weapons that are used against it; on the other, it has to battle with a verbose anti-Israeli lobby that will seize on anything to slag it off as a bully. Of course the militants know this dilemma and will play it for all its worth. I'm tempted to add: hence today's events.

Of course, it is worth remembering that, in the defence against militant islamism, Israel is in the frontline. Worth bearing in mind, IMHO.