Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Banjax]

i take it nows not a good time to admit i ignore speed limits quite a lot     on boxing day i hammered it from london to portsmouth to watch the football  cant be late for the match

It's your licence, and if you get caught up doing a ton up then it's an instant ban.

which team do you support then? you've never made it clear 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Lizzie

Are you suggesting that (for example) the death of a cyclist is down to "unwritten laws" and the hand of fate, and nothing to do with the deliberate actions of some body driving too fast?

Kevin (not Ken )

Yes!   Fate put the cyclist there, it made that person be at that particular place, at that time, on that date, just as the car was fated to be on the same spot, with the rest of the  road perhaps clear, but the collision happened "as planned".  The death of the cyclist would have a  fated knock on effect, that can change history for those around that person; cause, effect, and consequence comes into the equation fully, with the motorists life also changed by the momentum of the "scheduled" event.  Life, or death, decided by fate and God.

Throughout mans history that pattern has been there, and gives rise to the if's, maybe's, could have beens, and should have been of counter factual history.  One bullet, one action of man, one event, that on the face of it appears to be "man made", will become a  situation where people will say "that was fated; it was meant to happen!" It is in fact God's will to ensure the destiny of his children and the world is fulfilled.

I hope you are not serious Lizzie, if so, then I suggest that you take some tablets. :-? :-? :-?

It is not a question of tablets S, but a strong belief in my faith built over 57 years and a shed warehouse full, including much in the way of near death, experience.

Anyway just because my views are different than yours does not mean I need to take tablets!

It's not the difference in views I argue with, it is your implication that its OK to kill someone in an accident caused by your speeding, because its 'God's will'. I remember an air crash caused by a pilot uttering almost exact phrase (in his own language) in which he killed all on board. I assume, according to you, that was acceptable. Would you feel the same if a child of yours was killed by a speeding driver, and still believe it was God's will? If so, your God does not impress me.

I know S that I will never convince you, or Tapper, no matter what I say beyond what I have said already.  You are "localising" the theory and not looking at the much wider picture.

All I will add is that God giveth life and he takes it away within the fabric of overall life where everything is interlocked, nothing is operating independently, across not just the world, but throughout the universe.  One event in one place can effect what happens elsewhere, as everything we do has a knock on effect.  Even the loss of a child, although no one wishes for that to happen, has its reasons that we as mortals can not possibly understand.  How I often wish that cute baby Adolf Schicklgraber had died at birth, or had been killed during WW1, but no, destiny and fate had other ideas for reasons we, well me at least, will never understand or explain.  But I certainly go along with the results, of even losing a grandfather in 1940, due to my faith that all will be revealed in a distant time. Jesus came to us to prove that life after death exists and all the tribulations of today are insignificant within the whole scheme of things  

But S, and Tapper, you either have belief and faith, or you do not.  That is a personal thing, and whatever suits you I will not argue with.

[Sixstring]

I'm really beginning to like you, Lizzie.


Faith is a personnal thing, and do not be swayed if that is what you sincerely believe.


May your God be with you.  xx

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I'm really beginning to like you, Lizzie.


Faith is a personnal thing, and do not be swayed if that is what you sincerely believe.


May your God be with you.  xx

Thank you SS!

May God and peace be with you, and us all!    

[jerry]

ooh Lizzie, how this thread has changed since your comments!For my part I think that you have to make a distinction between faith and religion to start with.I also feel that "faith"-and indeed "fate"- is used to help us try and explain to ourselves how terrible things can happen (eg atrocities /casualties of war) as well as seeming miracles (eg escapes from seemingly certain death). Faith and superstition are bedfellows in this context. Think how superstitions grow amongst soldiers in times of prolonged crisis or of the growth of spiritualism amongst the families of those who died in the carnage of WW1. They are just ways of trying to make sense of what has happened. Those who may not sucumb to faith/superstition may simply state "when your time is up ".But drill down a bit. Dont get me wrong , Im not a total empiricist and I have a degree of sympathy for karma etc (call me a genuine agnostic rather than an atheist) but much of what happens can be attributed to the actions of others. Bit like the laws of physics. So, if you want to take risks with your own life (whether it be driving fast/extreme sports or unprotected sex or drugs or smoking ) thats up to you. You do your own risk assssment. You reason that your gonna die at somepoint anyway, you know the statistics about death from cancer or hang-gliding whatever. You make a sort of informed choice (or maybe not, you just do it)and you take a risk.Thats all an integral part of being human and, I guess, if nonone took any risks humanity would not progress too far. But surely we all have to be responsible and accountable for our actions. Aside from cases of coercian we have that degree of "free will". It might be ok to risk our own lives/health but is it right that we do so without any thought for the lives/halth of others?

[Mr Skrunts]

jerry, please define religeon for me please.

I believe my brother to be religeous in the fact he religeouus;y gets a lift to the club on a thursday night at 7pm to save seats for all his mates to that turn up at 8pm. 

Plus Millwall is religeous in the fact he never misses a match.    :-/

[albitz]

Wise words Jerry. I dont believe in religions or their god (although I dont direspect those who do) but If I did I dont see how God can possibly choose the moment when each human being dies. Drive down the motorway at 130mph, turn sharp left into a concrete bridge parapet - you will die, because you chose to. How can a god of love choose to allow the most pure and innocent of little children suffer a disease in agony, and have a long slow demise. Or allow young kids to be murdered etc by paedos......the list is almost endless. It just doesnt add up imo.
I can see the attraction though of believing in the "if your times up" theory. It can allow someone to live a life free from fretting and worrying about their own mortality, which is a nice state of mind to inhabit. But really it comes down to whatever works for each individual I suppose, and that thankfully is different for each of us.
Any way, on the original topic.......we concentrate to much on speed imo, it isnt a major factor in most road deaths. I believe the official statistics say around 9%. whatr we need to concentrate on imo, is training drivers to much higher standards. This could have several advantages - those who are on the roads would be safer road users, those who are brain dead dicks and should never have had a licence in the first place could be taken off the roads for good.
I have always believed that there should be a seperate very stringent test for motorway driving (which many people would fail) and there should be no speed limit on most motorways.
I was thinking about why bikers tend to possibly speed more than car drivers, and I think in my case its partially that I believe that if I am going fast on a road which is away from built up areas then any accident I have will almost certainly hurt no-one but myself.
Afaik its very rare for someone to be hurt in a motorcycle accident -outside of built up areas - who wasnt on the bike.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

ooh Lizzie, how this thread has changed since your comments!For my part I think that you have to make a distinction between faith and religionto start with.I also feel that "faith"-and indeed "fate"- is used to help us try and explain to ourselves how terrible things can happen (eg atrocities /casualties of war) as well as seeming miracles (eg escapes from seemingly certain death). Faith and superstition are bedfellows in this context. Think how superstitions grow amongst soldiers in times of prolonged crisis or of the growth of spiritualism amongst the families of those who died in the carnage of WW1. They are just ways of trying to make sense of what has happened. Those who may not sucumb to faith/superstition may simply state "when your time is up ".But drill down a bit. Dont get me wrong , Im not a total empiricist and I have a degree of sympathy for karma etc (call me a genuine agnostic rather than an atheist) but much of what happens can be attributed to the actions of others. Bit like the laws of physics. So, if you want to take risks with your own life (whether it be driving fast/extreme sports or unprotected sex or drugs or smoking ) thats up to you. You do your own risk assssment. You reason that your gonna die at somepoint anyway, you know the statistics about death from cancer or hang-gliding whatever. You make a sort of informed choice (or maybe not, you just do it)and you take a risk.Thats all an integral part of being human and, I guess, if nonone took any risks humanity would not progress too far. But surely we all have to be responsible and accountable for our actions. Aside from cases of coercian we have that degree of "free will". It might be ok to risk our own lives/health but is it right that we do so without any thought for the lives/halth of others?

I have already said enough on this subject during the many words of my postings, and covered the specific point about personal responsibility when deciding to "speed" which the thread was originally about.  Some of us though have a God based interpretation of events that maybe cannot be explained at the time, but in my weak mortal heart my faith tries explain the why in a world and universe that we as humans cannot and do not fathom in merely the 21st century.

However it may interest you to know that I do not practice "religion", a set belief in line with any formal "teaching".  I believe in direct worship with God, without any political middle men i.e. church, that have corrupted and manipulated the true meaning of God's intention, with his love, as communicated by Jesus without corruption by later living mortal men!  I am a COG - Children of God - as I believe we all are and anything else is a lie and falsehood.  That is my faith, nothing more, nothing less!

Now that may start another interesting discussion I know, but that is what I believe.  Can anyone prove me wrong?    Only God knows the full truth, and we are all blind men and woman struggling to know that truth in Plato's Cave!

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Wise words Jerry. I dont believe in religions or their god (although I dont direspect those who do) but If I did I dont see how God can possibly choose the moment when each human being dies. Drive down the motorway at 130mph, turn sharp left into a concrete bridge parapet - you will die, because you chose to. How can a god of love choose to allow the most pure and innocent of little children suffer a disease in agony, and have a long slow demise. Or allow young kids to be murdered etc by paedos......the list is almost endless. It just doesnt add up imo.
I can see the attraction though of believing in the "if your times up" theory. It can allow someone to live a life free from fretting and worrying about their own mortality, which is a nice state of mind to inhabit. But really it comes down to whatever works for each individual I suppose, and that thankfully is different for each of us.
Any way, on the original topic.......we concentrate to much on speed imo, it isnt a major factor in most road deaths. I believe the official statistics say around 9%. whatr we need to concentrate on imo, is training drivers to much higher standards. This could have several advantages - those who are on the roads would be safer road users, those who are brain dead dicks and should never have had a licence in the first place could be taken off the roads for good.
I have always believed that there should be a seperate very stringent test for motorway driving (which many people would fail) and there should be no speed limit on most motorways.
I was thinking about why bikers tend to possibly speed more than car drivers, and I think in my case its partially that I believe that if I am going fast on a road which is away from built up areas then any accident I have will almost certainly hurt no-one but myself.
Afaik its very rare for someone to be hurt in a motorcycle accident -outside of built up areas - who wasnt on the bike.

I respect your views Albs, I really do.  But God chooses the moment of your end as he did of the moment of your conception and birth.  You may think that you can chose your moment to die, but I know that is not always the case by a long way.  We call them "miraculous escapes", "divine intervention", when in fact it is part of God's regular 'business' in deciding who lives, and when they die, as he does for every part of the universe.  Just think how many cases there are of people who "should have died" - "I should be dead", but are not. Then there are the cases of people being killed "by a fluke", by "being in the wrong place at the wrong time".  Ask yourself why, and then try and apply answers that fit, then wait 25 years and see what that "survivor" achieved.  That is when you will see the wonder of God.  BUT, none of us can possibly explain all that transpires.  We are human, and the answers are not readily accessible.   We just will never know them in this life, or possibly the next!!

[albitz]

I have been in those "I should have died" situations so many times that I could honestly write a book about it Lizzie. I am so "accident prone" you wouldnt believe it, but I dont believe in god ( or not in any conventional sense at least) so to me its just chance, lifes rich tapestry etc. Life is what we make it - to a large extent - not what some man in the sky decides to make it for us imo.
Oh dear, I just read that back and I sound a little bit like Banjax.
My way of dealing with my own mortality has always been to try not to care about it too much. I could die today or die when Im 100 years old, I dont really care tbh. The only problem with that is that it is very selfish. There are a handful of people who would be more than a lttle upset if it happened tbh.

[Debs.]

There are a handful of people who would be more than a lttle upset if it happened tbh.

 ;)Your life-insurers would surely be suicidally upset!

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I have been in those "I should have died" situations so many times that I could honestly write a book about it Lizzie. I am so "accident prone" you wouldnt believe it, but I dont believe in god ( or not in any conventional sense at least) so to me its just chance, lifes rich tapestry etc. Life is what we make it - to a large extent - not what some man in the sky decides to make it for us imo.
Oh dear, I just read that back and I sound a little bit like Banjax.
My way of dealing with my own mortality has always been to try not to care about it too much. I could die today or die when Im 100 years old, I dont really care tbh. The only problem with that is that it is very selfish. There are a handful of people who would be more than a lttle upset if it happened tbh.

Absolutely agree with that view Albs, as love for each other is the vitally important factor, and we would all be missed if the worst happened

[cem_devecioglu]

Wise words Jerry. I dont believe in religions or their god (although I dont direspect those who do) but If I did I dont see how God can possibly choose the moment when each human being dies. Drive down the motorway at 130mph, turn sharp left into a concrete bridge parapet - you will die, because you chose to. How can a god of love choose to allow the most pure and innocent of little children suffer a disease in agony, and have a long slow demise. Or allow young kids to be murdered etc by paedos......the list is almost endless. It just doesnt add up imo.
I can see the attraction though of believing in the "if your times up" theory. It can allow someone to live a life free from fretting and worrying about their own mortality, which is a nice state of mind to inhabit. But really it comes down to whatever works for each individual I suppose, and that thankfully is different for each of us.
Any way, on the original topic.......we concentrate to much on speed imo, it isnt a major factor in most road deaths. I believe the official statistics say around 9%. whatr we need to concentrate on imo, is training drivers to much higher standards. This could have several advantages - those who are on the roads would be safer road users, those who are brain dead dicks and should never have had a licence in the first place could be taken off the roads for good.
I have always believed that there should be a seperate very stringent test for motorway driving (which many people would fail) and there should be no speed limit on most motorways.
I was thinking about why bikers tend to possibly speed more than car drivers, and I think in my case its partially that I believe that if I am going fast on a road which is away from built up areas then any accident I have will almost certainly hurt no-one but myself.
Afaik its very rare for someone to be hurt in a motorcycle accident -outside of built up areas - who wasnt on the bike.

 

on our roads , more accidents happen because some drivers choose to stop (nearly) in the middle of the road .. say you are coming from behind 60-70-80 mph and the donkey in front of you goes with 20-30 mph .. what will happen

[Shackeng]

IMO

Oh dear there does seem to be a lot of uninformed or unthinking or inexperienced opinion on this subject.

About 2,500 people a year a killed on Britain's roads. I have driven around 20,000 miles a year for 30+ years and I have never seen a fatal accident. I never saw the fatal accident on the A34 near here  which caused the local authority to reduce it to 40mph. But, might it not be just a bit arrogant of me to think that because I don't see the accidents and I didn't see the person killed on the A34, that I know better than the LA as to what a suitable speed would be on that stretch of road?

K

Yep, but to put everything into propestive, 156,720 people died from all cancers in the UK in 2009.  1 in four people who die will do so due to cancer.

On the 1st July 1916 the first day of the First Battle of the Somme claimed 60,000 casulties, with another 60,000 the next day.  When HMS Hood blew up on the 24th May 1941 1415 men were lost, with just 3 left bobbing around in the water wondering why they had survived.

I do not aim to trivalise the loss of 2,500 people a year in road collisions, but let us put it into prospective.  Yes we should make the roads safe, but still recognise that no  matter what, as I stated in my previous post, life is a risk from the second we are conceived.  God has planned our life and it is meant to be lived.  Live in a small room for life and your risks are very limited, but who wants that type of existence? No, live life to the full; take risks, have faith, and accept the inevitable when it happens!

Sorry about the delay in this reply, had a keyboard failure which required some effort to rectify.

Lizzie, my life and my career have been about taking calculated risks, including rallying with co-drivers, flying, motor cycle scrambling (now known as motocross), but to the best of my knowledge, I have never deliberately, unless it was a 'joint risk' enterprise, put other people at risk OF THEIR LIVES, because I enjoyed risking mine.

I have no problem with your beliefs, as we are all entitled to our own, but we should also remember that if God created us, he also created our free will, and that we should use this free will to deliberately put innocent people in harms way is not acceptable to my beliefs.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

IMO

Oh dear there does seem to be a lot of uninformed or unthinking or inexperienced opinion on this subject.

About 2,500 people a year a killed on Britain's roads. I have driven around 20,000 miles a year for 30+ years and I have never seen a fatal accident. I never saw the fatal accident on the A34 near here  which caused the local authority to reduce it to 40mph. But, might it not be just a bit arrogant of me to think that because I don't see the accidents and I didn't see the person killed on the A34, that I know better than the LA as to what a suitable speed would be on that stretch of road?

K

Yep, but to put everything into propestive, 156,720 people died from all cancers in the UK in 2009.  1 in four people who die will do so due to cancer.

On the 1st July 1916 the first day of the First Battle of the Somme claimed 60,000 casulties, with another 60,000 the next day.  When HMS Hood blew up on the 24th May 1941 1415 men were lost, with just 3 left bobbing around in the water wondering why they had survived.

I do not aim to trivalise the loss of 2,500 people a year in road collisions, but let us put it into prospective.  Yes we should make the roads safe, but still recognise that no  matter what, as I stated in my previous post, life is a risk from the second we are conceived.  God has planned our life and it is meant to be lived.  Live in a small room for life and your risks are very limited, but who wants that type of existence? No, live life to the full; take risks, have faith, and accept the inevitable when it happens!

Sorry about the delay in this reply, had a keyboard failure which required some effort to rectify.

Lizzie, my life and my career have been about taking calculated risks, including rallying with co-drivers, flying, motor cycle scrambling (now known as motocross), but to the best of my knowledge, I have never deliberately, unless it was a 'joint risk' enterprise, put other people at risk OF THEIR LIVES, because I enjoyed risking mine.

I have no problem with your beliefs, as we are all entitled to our own, but we should also remember that if God created us, he also created our free will, and that we should use this free will to deliberately put innocent people in harms way is not acceptable to my beliefs.

But I never stated the opposite to that S!  When I said take risks in that one sentence I meant that we cannot be wrapped up in cotton wool, and we must all live life to the full not in a state of constant protection.  Life is a risk, and as a trained risk assessor I know exactly what that means in both the domestic and commercial world.  I would never deliberately go out and put others at risk, and that it why I never fit cheap brakes or tyres to my cars, or cut corners in their maintenence as I know some do on this forum!!

But, as I repeatedly state in my previous posts, we live a life full of risks from beginning to end regardless of what we think or do.

As I have also previously stated in my "philosphy" posts, I strongly support the teachings of John Locke.  He made it clear that we all have a natural, God given, right to our freedom, but we have a duty to ensure that freedom hurts no one else, and we support the general 'social contract' when we live within our societies.

All that does not change my belief that shit in life happens, and for a reason only known to God who is orchestrating the whole universe! We have no control on that 'fate'