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[Nickbat]

religion and democracy , water and oil 

been there a hundred times.. done that a hundred times (history) .. No!

Rubbish. There are plenty of deeply religious countries, both secular and non-secular, that are free and democratic. 

first divide into two.. east and west..   for east trust me not worth talking about.. totally non-secular  ,  and if so , just on the paper..

and west.. passed from long historical religious wars , so got the lesson somewhat to an extent..  but if you dig a bit, you wont like what you see

You clearly miss the point that, over the centuries, religions have been the vehicles of expression for  different lifestyles and cultures. Here in the UK, we have been a Christian country, observing Christian holidays. And yet, we have been democratic (though we have now, in my opinion become post-democratic, though that is nothing to do with religion). Here, there are many Muslims who happily live alongside Christians and Jews, and it is often the most devout (though not extremist) that will readily accept such a situation.

Where religions have not gone through such enlightenment, and where religion - or rather culture, (since it has little to do with personal spirituality) - is foist upon others, promoted by a fanaticism matched by the worst type of football fan - who goes to a match to kick hell out of anyone that does not support their team - that problems occur. So, it is not religion per se, that is the problem, but the clash of cultures, often exacerbated by the spread of false fears by extremist leaders.

I feel sure that Israel and her Arab neighbours could co-exist peacefully were it not for the power-hungry leaders of certain groups whose rhetoric is designed to inflame tensions deliberately. 

[cem_devecioglu]

and as for the democracy..  counting the votes one day and forgetting other times is not  democracy.. 

you know who rules..

[Banjax]

of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says 

I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
 

Nickbat - i read that blog with interest, and it doesnt fill me with much hope if extremists gain control.....but what right does anyone other than Egyptians themselves have to decide? is or will Iran work behind the scenes to see the wahabbis or other fundamentalist muslims in power? and if so do we then have the right to influence the more liberal wings? and why should any egyptian (or any arab or muslim for that matter) believe us? we're the ones after all, that kept their hated president in power? why should they wish to believe we want democracy when clearly we dont? fascinating, complex, delicate and scary.....and i wish i'd studied more middle eastern history as i feel i've only got a few small parts of a much bigger puzzle 

[cem_devecioglu]

religion and democracy , water and oil 

been there a hundred times.. done that a hundred times (history) .. No!

Rubbish. There are plenty of deeply religious countries, both secular and non-secular, that are free and democratic. 

first divide into two.. east and west..   for east trust me not worth talking about.. totally non-secular  ,  and if so , just on the paper..

and west.. passed from long historical religious wars , so got the lesson somewhat to an extent..  but if you dig a bit, you wont like what you see

You clearly miss the point that, over the centuries, religions have been the vehicles of expression for  different lifestyles and cultures. Here in the UK, we have been a Christian country, observing Christian holidays.

no problems with your Christianity Nick..

And yet, we have been democratic (though we have now, in my opinion become post-democratic, though that is nothing to do with religion). Here, there are many Muslims who happily live alongside Christians and Jews, and it is often the most devout (though not extremist) that will readily accept such a situation.

answer censored by myself before admins
sorry.. clues: locals, immigrants,crisis,end of peace

Where religions have not gone through such enlightenment, and where religion - or rather culture, (since it has little to do with personal spirituality) - is foist upon others, promoted by a fanaticism matched by the worst type of football fan - who goes to a match to kick hell out of anyone that does not support their team - that problems occur. So, it is not religion per se,

it is the religion which is the driving force.. go read the lines of the book..you know which ..
that is the problem, but the clash of cultures, often exacerbated by the spread of false fears by extremist leaders.

I feel sure that Israel and her Arab neighbours could co-exist peacefully

impossible.. first reason of fight : the land.. so economic.. second reason : its shifted to be a religious fight..


were it not for the power-hungry leaders of certain groups whose rhetoric is designed to inflame tensions deliberately. 

[cem_devecioglu]

of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says 

I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
 

Nickbat - i read that blog with interest, and it doesnt fill me with much hope if extremists gain control.....but what right does anyone other than Egyptians themselves have to decide? is or will Iran work behind the scenes to see the wahabbis or other fundamentalist muslims in power? and if so do we then have the right to influence the more liberal wings? and why should any egyptian (or any arab or muslim for that matter) believe us? we're the ones after all, that kept their hated president in power? why should they wish to believe we want democracy when clearly we dont? fascinating, complex, delicate and scary.....and i wish i'd studied more middle eastern history as i feel i've only got a few small parts of a much bigger puzzle 

the writer is living in Alice's wonderland

[Nickbat]

of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says 

I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
 

Nickbat - i read that blog with interest, and it doesnt fill me with much hope if extremists gain control.....but what right does anyone other than Egyptians themselves have to decide? is or will Iran work behind the scenes to see the wahabbis or other fundamentalist muslims in power? and if so do we then have the right to influence the more liberal wings? and why should any egyptian (or any arab or muslim for that matter) believe us? we're the ones after all, that kept their hated president in power? why should they wish to believe we want democracy when clearly we dont? fascinating, complex, delicate and scary.....and i wish i'd studied more middle eastern history as i feel i've only got a few small parts of a much bigger puzzle 

Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution.      

[cem_devecioglu]

of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says 

I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
 

Nickbat - i read that blog with interest, and it doesnt fill me with much hope if extremists gain control.....but what right does anyone other than Egyptians themselves have to decide? is or will Iran work behind the scenes to see the wahabbis or other fundamentalist muslims in power? and if so do we then have the right to influence the more liberal wings? and why should any egyptian (or any arab or muslim for that matter) believe us? we're the ones after all, that kept their hated president in power? why should they wish to believe we want democracy when clearly we dont? fascinating, complex, delicate and scary.....and i wish i'd studied more middle eastern history as i feel i've only got a few small parts of a much bigger puzzle 

Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution.      

show the death and convince for malaria

[Nickbat]

Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution.      

show the death and convince for malaria

I personally know several Iranians, Cem. How many do you know? 

[Banjax]

of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says 

I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
 

Nickbat - i read that blog with interest, and it doesnt fill me with much hope if extremists gain control.....but what right does anyone other than Egyptians themselves have to decide? is or will Iran work behind the scenes to see the wahabbis or other fundamentalist muslims in power? and if so do we then have the right to influence the more liberal wings? and why should any egyptian (or any arab or muslim for that matter) believe us? we're the ones after all, that kept their hated president in power? why should they wish to believe we want democracy when clearly we dont? fascinating, complex, delicate and scary.....and i wish i'd studied more middle eastern history as i feel i've only got a few small parts of a much bigger puzzle 

the writer is living in Alice's wonderland

sadly, your cynicism is probably accurate and well placed Cem 

[cem_devecioglu]

Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution.      

show the death and convince for malaria

I personally know several Iranians, Cem. How many do you know? 

many !! , I was with them at the university (engineering) .. One was a math teacher who worked in Japan, and was a great man ( I learned many things from him, first how to learn) but his destiny never changed.. 

[Nickbat]

Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution.      

show the death and convince for malaria

I personally know several Iranians, Cem. How many do you know? 

many !! , I was with them at the university (engineering) .. One was a math teacher who worked in Japan, and was a great man ( I learned many things from him, first how to learn) but his destiny never changed.. 

Might he have worked in Iran had it not been for the revolution? 

[cem_devecioglu]

Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution.      

show the death and convince for malaria

I personally know several Iranians, Cem. How many do you know? 

many !! , I was with them at the university (engineering) .. One was a math teacher who worked in Japan, and was a great man ( I learned many things from him, first how to learn) but his destiny never changed.. 

Might he have worked in Iran had it not been for the revolution? 

nope.. first time had problems with shah management..  so gone to japan.. and was talking that language.. then the next..  was giving private lessons to pay the bills (was with the family in my country)  and  going school..

ps: time for bed and milk good night everyone..

[Nickbat]

Interesting...

The American government secretly backed leading figures behind the Egyptian uprising who have been planning “regime change” for the past three years, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8289686/Egypt-protests-Americas-secret-backing-for-rebel-leaders-behind-uprising.html

[mathewst]

We were planning another holiday to Tunisia but have changed our mind now... Probably holiday in the UK again this year now, although Italy may be a possibility 

Well you can always visit my country if you want.
Cheaper than Italy and far safer than Egipt and Tunisia

[aaronjb]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/30/al-jazeera-in-cairo-being_n_815912.html
"If we shut down this media outlet, the whole revolution will go away!" *sticks fingers in ears and head in sand*

We were planning another holiday to Tunisia but have changed our mind now... Probably holiday in the UK again this year now, although Italy may be a possibility 

Well you can always visit my country if you want.
Cheaper than Italy and far safer than Egipt and Tunisia

And Split is a beautiful place, from what I remember