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[cem_devecioglu]

There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.


good summary of truth Lizzie..  whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and  in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it  will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders..  And more than that, I dont think  this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism.. 

this may seem like a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but the impression i get (from afar and admittedly filtered through the telly news) is that muslim extremists are generally about as welcome to Egyptians as a fart in a spacesuit? or are they just clever at disguising their popular support?

You may not be far off where Egypt is concerned BJ - The Muslim Brotherhood (to name but one, and if indeed they can be labelled as extremists) doesn't seem to have much popular support there.

At the moment the general movement for change - as being driven by the person in the street - seems to be centred on getting the Mubarak regime out, what follows in terms of a conventional political structure to take over the administration of the country is a question that presently seems to be rather more difficult to answer.

 I'm afraid, for me, its not..  any revolution which does not have an industrial culture behind, sooner or later  will follow the usual river bed (you know what I mean)..  and there is no exception 

now may be its time to tell you something unusual for you.. Have you heard of votes for sale 

easy.. if the community average is poor.. and you gave them the coal for winter, some food and some money (not that much money required) , you can get their votes easily.. and remember those families are crowded.. minimum 4-5 persons..  even there , the name of the system is democractic , would you believe that ? 

[albitz]

Buying votes has always happened to some degree or other. It happened here on a grand scale in the last three elections (paying people equivalent to a wage to sit at home doing nothing, handing out passports to just about anyone etc). It didnt quite work in the last one though.

[cem_devecioglu]

Buying votes has always happened to some degree or other. It happened here on a grand scale in the last three elections (paying people equivalent to a wage to sit at home doing nothing, handing out passports to just about anyone etc). It didnt quite work in the last one though.

you may never know , how many and what effect it has..   

[albitz]

It doesnt make a huge difference who gets in here imo. They are all determined to occupy the same small area on the left of centre. Otherwise the largely left leaning media and powerbrokers will slaughter them.

[Martin_1962]

There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.


good summary of truth Lizzie..  whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and  in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it  will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders..  And more than that, I dont think  this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism.. 

this may seem like a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but the impression i get (from afar and admittedly filtered through the telly news) is that muslim extremists are generally about as welcome to Egyptians as a fart in a spacesuit? or are they just clever at disguising their popular support?

Actually a fart in a space suit would be more popular!

What happened when extremists bombed the Egyptian Christians - the proper Muslims joined them in their churches.

Shared nationality is stronger than religion there.

[Banjax]

It doesnt make a huge difference who gets in here imo. They are all determined to occupy the same small area on the left of centre. Otherwise the largely left leaning media and powerbrokers will slaughter them.

we do live in a left leaning society - thats true. the media reflects this...........actually perhaps just the Daily Mirror - (which no one reads) all other media sits on the right or like the BBC, ITV and 2 national papers sits in the middle. Some of our more swivel-eyed brethren would have it that the Beeb is part of a huge left-wing conspiracy (see peak oil, climate change, immigration, ad infinitum, ad nauseum).

Sadly for this small band of bewildered and deluded souls the BBC is actually a symbol of truth across the planet - all the more reason to damn the government cuts to the highly valued and respected World Service. If these last few days and weeks teach us anything its that we as a planet are all in this together - its a global community and most of us want the same things - freedom from tyranny, freedom from religious doctrine, peace and large flatscreen TV's 

[Dishevelled Den]

 I'm afraid, for me, its not..  any revolution which does not have an industrial culture behind, sooner or later  will follow the usual river bed (you know what I mean)..  and there is no exception 

Yes I think that's a fair point cem.  My concern at the moment is that when the populist fervour subsides (and in the event that Mubarak does depart) is there the maturity and quality of political leadership available in Egypt to promote that culture? (Providing that opposition parties and others have recognised the necessity of this in the first place)

[Dishevelled Den]

now may be its time to tell you something unusual for you.. Have you heard of votes for sale 

easy.. if the community average is poor.. and you gave them the coal for winter, some food and some money (not that much money required) , you can get their votes easily.. and remember those families are crowded.. minimum 4-5 persons..  even there , the name of the system is democractic , would you believe that ? 

This is how many groups will attempt to broker power in the 'new' Egypt, it's easy to sell ideas and hope to people who have little - providing the price to be paid seems reasonable.

However, inevitably, the true cost those 'bargain' goods will only become apparent in the long run.

[Dishevelled Den]

Sadly for this small band of bewildered and deluded souls the BBC is actually a symbol of truth across the planet - all the more reason to damn the government cuts to the highly valued and respected World Service. If these last few days and weeks teach us anything its that we as a planet are all in this together - its a global community and most of us want the same things - freedom from tyranny, freedom from religious doctrine, peace and large flatscreen TV's 

Of course truth can be a very capricious and ethereal beast BJ as many in the real establishment here also think the World Service is a splendid vehicle for getting particular messages across to relevant groups and individuals within the targeted listening area.

The days of the independent BBC are over (if they really existed) and the Corporation is, in my view, merely the whore of whatever government is in power.

Being dependant on the licence fee for everything from infrastructure, programming, salaries and pensions (with the odd knighthood or peerage thrown in) is it unreasonable to suggest that the Beeb will always follow the furrow ploughed by the political party in government?

I do also agree that many of us want peace and the other things you mentioned but is that a 'peace at any price'?

[Lizzie_Zoom]

There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.

What I can add though is never forget about the importance of "brotherhood" in both secular and deeply religious societies. That typical 'mans' habit of grouping or bonding together in a common shared sense of belonging.  It has driven conflict for centuries, and I see no evidence of it changing any time soon.

When this happens blood brotherhood seems to overtake religion.  Exceptions are of course scattered throughout history, with say the Christian Crusades and Elizabethan stand against Philip of Spain, in particular during the 1580s, culminating in the Spanish Armada of 1588, coming to mind.

But when Britain declared war on Germany in the August of 1914 their was open jubilation on the streets, with a chance to fight the growing threat to the Empire of the Hun.  No talk of religion as both were Chritian countries, and all rememberance of the Prussian army saving Wellington's bacon at Waterloo was forgotten.  I fear to say that even now many men would come together over any talk of fighting the French again (heaven forbid!!).  On that point even the welling patrisism, nationalism, and desire for world power for a new Empire took the Royal Navy fleet into battle against the French and Spanish fleet at Trafalgar on the 21st October 1805.  Once again no talk of religion.  Chartism caused great groups of multi-religious and secular groups to come together during 1838-48, for the "Common Good".

The Nazis invasion of Russia on that infamous day of 22nd June 1941 was all about world domination and ridding Germany of the communist threat yes, but probably more about the hatred felt by the 3.6 million Germans involved towards the Russians.

What am I really saying?  Well I believe, and it is purely my viewpoint, is that mans natural desire to group for battle, for a cause, is far stronger than the one of grouping over religion or politics.  Men in these groups think of honour first, the upholding of the cause, fighting the battle together, then perhaps later justify it with politics and religion.

The Middle East situation is very complex, but as usual what comes first in any talk of battle is fighting the Jew, or Palestinian, or Western power, then actually about the religion that may be behind those groups.  The lack of trust, as existed between Great Britain and Germany before the Great War, is really the spark that ignites conflict, with religion secondary.

In Egypt this will result in first the fight, now well advanced, to remove the regieme untrusted by most Egyptians.  The dust will then settle, and as in Iran after the Shah was deposed, the momentum to fill the vacuum is taken up by the secular or religious factions, whoever they will be.  They may well cause a secondary battle for political power, where the religious element becomes important.  But that does not mean that really the aims of any group is one of gaining power, nothing to do with religion, which in fact has been a smokescreen, an excuse, as in fact it always was in all past historical conflicts.

That grouping of men in the common cause who have caused battle to ensue, and lives to be lost, need an excuse to justify their actions.  "In the name of God or Allah" becomes then the common cry! 

History rolls on, and mans inhumanity to man continues, often finally in the name of religion, which is actually the biggest crime of all!  So as we watch Egypt, and the other nations in those parts playing their power games, remember it really is about mans power over other men, not about the God most of us worship!


 

good summary of truth Lizzie..  whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and  in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it  will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders..  And more than that, I dont think  this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism.. 

Thanks Cem!

I think the stabilization of the whole region, not just Egypt, all very much depends on how the western powers act.  Any action against the will of the Egyptians, or the Arab nations as a whole, will not only be very stupid, but highly dangerous.  With Islamic feelings as they are over western involvement in Afghanistan any attempt to manipulate the outcome (as the west has done so many times in the past) will be absolutely disastrous and the "stabilization" you talk of Cem will unfortunately just run away as sand runs away in the desert!

Let us all pray to our God that common sense will prevail, peace is established, and the evils of power greed are kept chained.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Sadly for this small band of bewildered and deluded souls the BBC is actually a symbol of truth across the planet - all the more reason to damn the government cuts to the highly valued and respected World Service. If these last few days and weeks teach us anything its that we as a planet are all in this together - its a global community and most of us want the same things - freedom from tyranny, freedom from religious doctrine, peace and large flatscreen TV's 

Of course truth can be a very capricious and ethereal beast BJ as many in the real establishment here also think the World Service is a splendid vehicle for getting particular messages across to relevant groups and individuals within the targeted listening area.

The days of the independent BBC are over (if they really existed) and the Corporation is, in my view, merely the whore of whatever government is in power.

Being dependant on the licence fee for everything from infrastructure, programming, salaries and pensions (with the odd knighthood or peerage thrown in) is it unreasonable to suggest that the Beeb will always follow the furrow ploughed by the political party in government?

I do also agree that many of us want peace and the other things you mentioned but is that a 'peace at any price'?

I do usually support the BBC, but I believe you are very right in your statement ZL.  In fact I would go further and say that the BBC were never completely independent and from its early days the Director Generals ensured it was very much a mouthpiece of the establishment and the middle to upper classes.

The 1939-45 war years broadcasts very much reinforced that position as the mouthpiece of the Coalition war time Government that correctly uttered great war winning propaganda and maintained the spirit of the British people.

Labour Governments in post war years may well have weakened that grip, but it took a lot for Auntie Beeb to become more up to date after the 1960s 'popular cultural , revolution'.  It has certainly become more left wing in my lifetime!

However, the BBC has become a questioner of government policy as much as a supporter of it.  To me they have on balance become to a far greater degree neautral.  Before you argue that point, remember the BBC did used to be referred to as "Auntie Beeb" because it was for the good of the nation, the decider of what was right and wrong, or "proper", reinforced by their special right to broadcast "Public Announcements" ie what the government wanted you to believe, without question.  That special status expired, in my opinion, in the 1970s when the BBC encouraged by way of material broadcast to question the people's security in the event of a nuclear attack.

In all, with all its faults, I still love and respect the BBC, as much of the world does when compared to their "State Broadcasters".

[Banjax]

I don't think theres one government of the last 40 years that hasnt had fallouts with the beeb - if they were a government mouthpiece they haven't quite got the hang of it.
So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie....
I reckon if half the folk think it toes the Tory party line and the other half think its lefty, then its probably getting it about right 

[Dishevelled Den]

I don't think theres one government of the last 40 years that hasnt had fallouts with the beeb - if they were a government mouthpiece they haven't quite got the hang of it.
So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie....
I reckon if half the folk think it toes the Tory party line and the other half think its lefty, then its probably getting it about right 

So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie

Don't worry about it BJ, the Beeb isn't dead to me - I still watch a lot of BBC4 and listen Radio 3 every day and I fancy the pants off Stephanie Flanders.

[Banjax]

I don't think theres one government of the last 40 years that hasnt had fallouts with the beeb - if they were a government mouthpiece they haven't quite got the hang of it.
So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie....
I reckon if half the folk think it toes the Tory party line and the other half think its lefty, then its probably getting it about right 

So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie

Don't worry about it BJ, the Beeb isn't dead to me - I still watch a lot of BBC4 and listen Radio 3 every day and I fancy the pants off Ned Flanders.

[Dishevelled Den]

I don't think theres one government of the last 40 years that hasnt had fallouts with the beeb - if they were a government mouthpiece they haven't quite got the hang of it.
So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie....
I reckon if half the folk think it toes the Tory party line and the other half think its lefty, then its probably getting it about right 

So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie

Don't worry about it BJ, the Beeb isn't dead to me - I still watch a lot of BBC4 and listen Radio 3 every day and I fancy the pants off Ned Flanders.

  Any port in a storm.