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[cem_devecioglu]

You will never win an argument against a religion...they all should be banned.

Thats true..They are living in a time slice thousand years ago..

[Golfbuddy]

There is a lot of taxpayers money going to Sudan, OUR money. Any mention of that being withheld may bring about a change of heart. But dont hold your breath, our lily-livered government would be frightened of being labelled human rights abusers by the liberal minority who run europe.

:oI accept the arguments along the lines of "could've been lashed" & yes point taken, she's got 10 days to serve after her "remand", she knew where she was going to work etc, when in Rome.....but @ the end of the day this is an english woman & Teddy Bear. Regardless of religion, which let's face it is all unproven beliefs by often educated but weak minded people, there is no need or justification for this.
    What did the uk do? Shuffle thier feet, look at the floor, make the odd plea, hold meetings/conferences, the usual limp wristed fanny. I know things like this operate on a higher level than most of us can understand, but this lady is someones Mother/Wife/Sister.....
        If that was the case what would your rational thinking tell you to do?  

OK guys, the reason our government don't and won't do anything more about this is contained in this article. As ever, there is always a reason why they are too scared to do anything.

[Martin_1962]

OK guys, the reason our government don't and won't do anything more about this is contained in this article. As ever, there is always a reason why they are too scared to do anything.

If BUsh found out he would invade

[Nickbat]

You will never win an argument against a religion...they all should be banned.

With the greatest respect, that is exactly the line that fundamentalists take. i.e ban anything that you don't agree with.

I don't mind anyone having personal spiritual beliefs, indeed in some ways it can make them better people. What I do not agree with, though, is the man-made clubs that falsely use religious beliefs as their basis in a "your either with us or against us" way. Most ancient texts preach tolerance, yet this is rarely mentioned. Indeed, in this current case, I did hear a relatively highly-placed Muslim leader saying that there was absolutely nothing wrong with calling a teddy bear Mohammed and that there is absolutely nothing in the Koran to say it wasn't permitted. So much then for people saying Gillian was naive and should have known the law, when even senior theologians don't know.

And while we're on the subject of freedom, I see nothing wrong in holding the Oxford Union debate the other day or having sex with a bicycle in private (if you don't know the story, ignore this  ).

Provided no one is hurt, and no crime is either committed or encouraged, free speech and freedom of action is essential to our way of life. Banning things is rarely the answer.

As Voltaire (I think   ) said, "I disagree with everything you say, but I shall fight to the death for your right to say it".  

[Golfbuddy]

OK guys, the reason our government don't and won't do anything more about this is contained in this article. As ever, there is always a reason why they are too scared to do anything.

If BUsh found out he would invade

Yep, and steal the oil.

[Nickbat]

OK guys, the reason our government don't and won't do anything more about this is contained in this article. As ever, there is always a reason why they are too scared to do anything.

If BUsh found out he would invade

Yep, and steal the oil.

It's got b*****r to do with oil. What could any government do, other than call in the relevant Ambassador and protest? You can't go to war or send in an SAS snatch squad for one person's 15-day (10 left) prison sentence, however unjust it may be (and it is).  

[Nickbat]

I meant b*****r all to do with oil....  

[Golfbuddy]

I meant b*****r all to do with oil....  

I agree that it's got nothing to do with oil. My general point was that, diplomatically it is not as simple as withdrawing aid from any country who excersise their right to govern their own country in any way they see fit.

I said earlier in this thread that Sudan have every right to enforce their laws any way they like. Ignorance is not a defence.

In Sudan, or many other countries come to that, the teddy bear has no symbolism as we know it. From the islamic perspective, naming an 'unclean' animal after their God is just as blasphemous as naming it after toy pig or a toy dog.

We live in a society where we can say what we like about whom we like whenever we like, although that right is seriously threatened by recent acts of parliament in the name of anti-terrorist measures. The same freedoms are not allowed to people in other countries but it is the right of those countries to excercise that right.

I don't believe we should condemn Sudan for excersising their right to uphold their laws in the way they choose. I doubt whether many of us are expert in either the Sudanese legal system or Islamic law. Most of what we believe to be the truth is fed to us by the media and we all know about the standard of reporting in this country, although that is a completely different issue.

[Nickbat]

I meant b*****r all to do with oil....  

I agree that it's got nothing to do with oil. My general point was that, diplomatically it is not as simple as withdrawing aid from any country who excersise their right to govern their own country in any way they see fit.

I said earlier in this thread that Sudan have every right to enforce their laws any way they like. Ignorance is not a defence.

In Sudan, or many other countries come to that, the teddy bear has no symbolism as we know it. From the islamic perspective, naming an 'unclean' animal after their God is just as blasphemous as naming it after toy pig or a toy dog.

We live in a society where we can say what we like about whom we like whenever we like, although that right is seriously threatened by recent acts of parliament in the name of anti-terrorist measures. The same freedoms are not allowed to people in other countries but it is the right of those countries to excercise that right.

I don't believe we should condemn Sudan for excersising their right to uphold their laws in the way they choose. I doubt whether many of us are expert in either the Sudanese legal system or Islamic law. Most of what we believe to be the truth is fed to us by the media and we all know about the standard of reporting in this country, although that is a completely different issue.

It's ironic though that, a decade ago, those of the Islamic faith could, if they so chose, extol the virtues of their beliefs to, while not a exactly a receptive audience, at least a politely listening one. After 9/11, other atrocities and recently this case, the average person sees their faith in a very negative light. Surely, then, from an Islamic perspective, these acts have had the total opposite effect to that which was intended.  

[Marks DTM Calib]

Simple

Stop all aid to Sudan and stop all immigration from Sudan......then think about a trade squeeze.

Plus, kick the diplomats out (which we are entitled to do).

Its a disgrace, a massive over reaction.

Sudan has massive and more serious internal problems they are doing nothing about

[STMO123]

Simple

Stop all aid to Sudan and stop all immigration from Sudan......then think about a trade squeeze.

Plus, kick the diplomats out (which we are entitled to do).

Its a disgrace, a massive over reaction.

Sudan has massive and more serious internal problems they are doing nothing about

And that's exactly how the Sudanese government want it to stay. They stay in power and use the Janjaweed as enforcers, whilst getting billions in foreign aid to help the very people they subjugating.

[cem_devecioglu]

Now problem seems to be Sudan but after will be other countries..

Main reason lying behind these problems is not only the religion, the way and style these primitive people live,think and feel..

And they are open to every kind of provocation..

Unless these are changed its not important they are christian or muslim..

By the way I must say that whoever says religions dont include violance or primitive styles of punishment, just read the related things ...You will see..

[bob.dent]

You will never win an argument against a religion...they all should be banned.

Not being religious myself I'm inclined to agree with you there. Let's face it, over the centuries religion has been the prime cause of nearly all wars and terrorism.

[cem_devecioglu]

You will never win an argument against a religion...they all should be banned.

Not being religious myself I'm inclined to agree with you there. Let's face it, over the centuries religion has been the prime cause of nearly all wars and terrorism.

absolutely, definitiely ve kesinlikle..

[Paulus]

You will never win an argument against a religion...they all should be banned.

Not being religious myself I'm inclined to agree with you there. Let's face it, over the centuries religion has been the prime cause of nearly all wars and terrorism.

absolutely, definitiely ve kesinlikle..

I am not a fundamentalist, nor condone it. As Bob has pointed out, I doubt that there has ever been a greater single cause of man-induced death than anything else.

It is my opinion that all religions are hypocritical. They use scripts out of their holy books to suit the situation. For instance, in the Bible, there is "...forgive thy neighbour..." and "...eye for and eye...". A contradiction in terms. That's just one of many.

It is insane that naming a childs toy can result in a prison sentence. What kind of a twisted world am I bringing up my children in to? If I said to my Son "...oh no Harvey, you can't call your teddy Moses...", he would think that I had lost the plot (maybe I have).

[steps down off his soapbox]