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[dbdb]

... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want.  Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be.

It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism.  Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion.  There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.

[dbdb]

This one was in Oregon USA (no need to import the spray that time)

[cem_devecioglu]

... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want.  Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be.

It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism.  Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion.  There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.

it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own
 
honestly most of the protesters are middle class  well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation..  and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
 
once this start, it wont stop until things change
 
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears

[Lizzie_Zoom]

... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want.  Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be.

It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism.  Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion.  There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.

it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own
 
honestly most of the protesters are middle class  well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation..  and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
 
once this start, it wont stop until things change
 
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears

..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789.  Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th.  It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever.  This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising.

[cem_devecioglu]

... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want.  Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be.

It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism.  Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion.  There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.

it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own
 
honestly most of the protesters are middle class  well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation..  and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
 
once this start, it wont stop until things change
 
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears

..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789.  Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th.  It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever.  This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising.

Lizzie our greatest revolution is in 1923 where my ancestors brought down the ottoman empire and established a new republic..

however, until today some foreign power combined with local betrayers eat up the republic and we reached today

[Sir Tigger KC]

Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.

Why do you think that?   

[danzigfan]

... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want.  Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be.

It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism.  Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion.  There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.

it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own
 
honestly most of the protesters are middle class  well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation..  and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
 
once this start, it wont stop until things change
 
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears

..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789.  Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th.  It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever.  This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising.

Lizzie our greatest revolution is in 1923 where my ancestors brought down the ottoman empire and established a new republic..

however, until today some foreign power combined with local betrayers eat up the republic and we reached today

 
 
Cem, I really hope you're not headed into the same direction as my former country  23 years ago....the reasons for it were  much similar to what you described

[cem_devecioglu]

... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want.  Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be.

It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism.  Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion.  There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.

it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own
 
honestly most of the protesters are middle class  well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation..  and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
 
once this start, it wont stop until things change
 
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears

..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789.  Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th.  It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever.  This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising.

Lizzie our greatest revolution is in 1923 where my ancestors brought down the ottoman empire and established a new republic..

however, until today some foreign power combined with local betrayers eat up the republic and we reached today

 
 
Cem, I really hope you're not headed into the same direction as my former country  23 years ago....the reasons for it were  much similar to what you described

Honestly with all this happening no one can estimate what will happen after but I guess it wont be worse than that..

[dbdb]

Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.

Why do you think that?   

Do you mean why do I think that it's not a democracy or why do I think that it's lucky it's not a democracy?

The former is probably not very contentious.  However the West are always very quick to denounce countries as not democracies (with the strange recent exception of Iran) and ignore the fact that almost every country has some form of representation and elected councils (eg Libya did, Cuba does).  So you could argue there is some democracy in that the Party positions are elected within the Party, but most would agree China is not very democratic.

By the  latter I mean the World and China itself are lucky not having a perfect democracy at the moment because, being early on its capitalist period, the vast majority of Chinese work on the land.  If it had a perfect democracy (i.e. the country run in the interests of the majority) China would be being run in the interest of the peasants.  Consequently it would probably be occupied by some other country.

[Rods2]

Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.

Why do you think that?   

Do you mean why do I think that it's not a democracy or why do I think that it's lucky it's not a democracy?

The former is probably not very contentious.  However the West are always very quick to denounce countries as not democracies (with the strange recent exception of Iran) and ignore the fact that almost every country has some form of representation and elected councils (eg Libya did, Cuba does).  So you could argue there is some democracy in that the Party positions are elected within the Party, but most would agree China is not very democratic.

By the  latter I mean the World and China itself are lucky not having a perfect democracy at the moment because, being early on its capitalist period, the vast majority of Chinese work on the land.  If it had a perfect democracy (i.e. the country run in the interests of the majority) China would be being run in the interest of the peasants.  Consequently it would probably be occupied by some other country.

They tried that with collectivisation and it lead to mass starvation. After the cultural revolution, which was meant to reinvent the communist country, but just made it worse, their choices were to go the route they have gone or become a bigger version of North Korea.

One party states do have elections, but the real power is held in a rigid autocratic way, where elected assemblies rubber stamp, what has been decided, with at best a few rough edges rounded off. This is like the old USSR and the current EU. In both case the elected assembly could not introduce legislation. Under the Soviet system this was the Politburo and with the EU, the 27 commissioners plus the commission president.

What will happen in China is interesting where the Government controlled industries and Banks are very corrupt and making big losses and with the way the Chinese Libor rate is rising at the moment, suggests their economy could be in for a hard landing over the next few months.

The reason that autocratic countries are generally poorer than democratic ones where you have checks and balances is that in more democratic free market economies capital is allocated much more efficiently and productively.

[Sir Tigger KC]

By the  latter I mean the World and China itself are lucky not having a perfect democracy at the moment because, being early on its capitalist period, the vast majority of Chinese work on the land.  If it had a perfect democracy (i.e. the country run in the interests of the majority) China would be being run in the interest of the peasants.  Consequently it would probably be occupied by some other country.

Why do you think China would be occupied by another country if it was a democracy? 

India is the biggest democracy in the world by population and it also has an impoverished majority who work the land yet it has been independent since 1947.  Sorry I don't understand..... 

Anyway, there's no such thing as a perfect democracy, never has been and never will!  A country being run in the interests of the majority!!??    Whatever next!!! 

[dbdb]

One party states do have elections, but the real power is held in a rigid autocratic way, where elected assemblies rubber stamp, what has been decided, with at best a few rough edges rounded off. This is like the old USSR and the current EU. In both case the elected assembly could not introduce legislation. Under the Soviet system this was the Politburo and with the EU, the 27 commissioners plus the commission president.

Well having denied Chinese democracy I don't really want to defend it but the Chinese National People's Congress, elected by the party does propose legislation as well as draft, amend and approve it.   Delegates to the NPC are elected for five-year terms via a multi-tiered representative electoral system. Delegates are elected by the provincial people's assemblies, who in turn are elected by lower level assemblies, and so on through a series of tiers to the local people's assemblies which are directly elected by the electorate .I wouldn't say though on any empirical analysis the government represents the immediate interests of the majority of Chinese.  They think they know better, and probably do. 

Despite popular belief almost all countries have some system involving democracy at some stage (even we do, every 5 years!). But there's a lot of power and vested interest that can be subtly applied at all stages.  Not to mention the media. If you don't believe that happens in the UK (bring back hanging why don't we!) or USA you need a sight test.

[dbdb]

Why do you think China would be occupied by another country if it was a democracy? 

Because if it was run in the immediate interests of the majority (land workers)  it would be a country sitting on a lot of natural and geographic resources with not much industry and military. Surrounded by a lot of advanced capitalist countries with high tech militaries and industries and not enough resources.

India is the biggest democracy in the world by population and it also has an impoverished majority who work the land yet it has been independent since 1947.  Sorry I don't understand..... 

India's a very different country, very crowded, lots of urban dwellers.  When it was a feudal country it was occupied.  By us.  They are now more capitalist and pretty quickly the 1% in India got themselves some nukes.  Invasion suddenly becomes unlikely after a succesful test. 

Anyway, there's no such thing as a perfect democracy, never has been and never will!  A country being run in the interests of the majority!!??    Whatever next!!! 

Will happen one day.  Next day there'll be a coup though .

[dbug]

One party states do have elections, but the real power is held in a rigid autocratic way, where elected assemblies rubber stamp, what has been decided, with at best a few rough edges rounded off. This is like the old USSR and the current EU. In both case the elected assembly could not introduce legislation. Under the Soviet system this was the Politburo and with the EU, the 27 commissioners plus the commission president.

Well having denied Chinese democracy I don't really want to defend it but the Chinese National People's Congress, elected by the party does propose legislation as well as draft, amend and approve it.  Delegates to the NPC are elected for five-year terms via a multi-tiered representative electoral system. Delegates are elected by the provincial people's assemblies, who in turn are elected by lower level assemblies, and so on through a series of tiers to the local people's assemblies which are directly elected by the electorate .I wouldn't say though on any empirical analysis the government represents the immediate interests of the majority of Chinese.  They think they know better, and probably do. 

Despite popular belief almost all countries have some system involving democracy at some stage (even we do, every 5 years!). But there's a lot of power and vested interest that can be subtly applied at all stages.  Not to mention the media. If you don't believe that happens in the UK (bring back hanging why don't we!) or USA you need a sight test.

Wikipedia rules ok (See Election and membership section) 

[dbdb]

No I think that means google rules, unless you are smart enough to use wikipedia and came across it that way.

Probably not

Or maybe you get all your info first hand.  Your right hand