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[tombo5609]

I have just found this forum and followed the debate with interest.
    I at the moment am just coming to the end of a 3 month stay in Fethiye where I have a holiday home and whilst there have not been any violence or incidents that get reported there is still a quiet protest. Each evening at sunset a group, probably 100 people gather under the statue of Ataturk, drape themselves with the Turkish flag and just stand quietly.
     If you listen to the conversations you find a majority of the people do have problems with Erdogan and it goes a lot further than Istanbul or Ankara.
    The protests go a lot further than trees in a park. that was only the catalyst. Erdogan has over the years been slowly changing the constitution from a secular to an islamic culture. He is setting the agenda by altering the funding for schools. 70% of educational funding goes to religious shools leaving the secular schools to fend for themselves. This in itself changes the nature of the future population as they will come out of school with an agenda rather than a liberal viewpoint. This, along with small but subtle changes that have not gone unoticed are now being challenged by a young educated movement.
    Trees in a park have started a challenge to the future direction of Turkey and at present nobody knows the outcome.

    It is such a shame because i have lived here for 10yrs and a nicer more hospitable people I have never met. I go back to UK next week and the contrast will be obvious as soon as I get off the plane.  

[cem_devecioglu]

I have just found this forum and followed the debate with interest.
    I at the moment am just coming to the end of a 3 month stay in Fethiye where I have a holiday home and whilst there have not been any violence or incidents that get reported there is still a quiet protest. Each evening at sunset a group, probably 100 people gather under the statue of Ataturk, drape themselves with the Turkish flag and just stand quietly.
     If you listen to the conversations you find a majority of the people do have problems with Erdogan and it goes a lot further than Istanbul or Ankara.
    The protests go a lot further than trees in a park. that was only the catalyst. Erdogan has over the years been slowly changing the constitution from a secular to an islamic culture. He is setting the agenda by altering the funding for schools. 70% of educational funding goes to religious shools leaving the secular schools to fend for themselves. This in itself changes the nature of the future population as they will come out of school with an agenda rather than a liberal viewpoint. This, along with small but subtle changes that have not gone unoticed are now being challenged by a young educated movement.
    Trees in a park have started a challenge to the future direction of Turkey and at present nobody knows the outcome.

    It is such a shame because i have lived here for 10yrs and a nicer more hospitable people I have never met. I go back to UK next week and the contrast will be obvious as soon as I get off the plane.

I also like Fethiye too.. And wish to live there when retired if budget permits..
 
and your understanding of events is definitely correct.. thanks for sharing

[Sir Tigger KC]

Why do you think China would be occupied by another country if it was a democracy? 

Because if it was run in the immediate interests of the majority (land workers)  it would be a country sitting on a lot of natural and geographic resources with not much industry and military. Surrounded by a lot of advanced capitalist countries with high tech militaries and industries and not enough resources.

India is the biggest democracy in the world by population and it also has an impoverished majority who work the land yet it has been independent since 1947.  Sorry I don't understand..... 

India's a very different country, very crowded, lots of urban dwellers.  When it was a feudal country it was occupied.  By us.  They are now more capitalist and pretty quickly the 1% in India got themselves some nukes.  Invasion suddenly becomes unlikely after a succesful test. 

Anyway, there's no such thing as a perfect democracy, never has been and never will!  A country being run in the interests of the majority!!??    Whatever next!!! 

Will happen one day.  Next day there'll be a coup though .

I disagree with your views about both countries dbdb.

If China had been an open and free democratic country since the demise of the Emperors in 1916, with a free market economy and the rule of law, the world would be a very different place.  A strong China in the 1930's might have deterred Japanese ambitions then, which might have led to different outcomes in WW2 and the Cold War.  They would probably now be the worlds largest economy and possibly the world's biggest military power, both of which they may well achieve in the coming years anyway, but only after Deng Xiaoping liberalised the economy in the 1980's.  Incidentally China has been a nuclear power since the 1960's and is a permanent member of the UN Security Council, they have a standing army of over 2 million, so I doubt they would be occupied by another country, democracy or not.

India was as you rightly say, occupied by us, but it was not a democracy before the British arrived and certainly wasn't under British rule.  Again India's economy has flourished since the economy was liberalised in the 1990's and it is a relative newcomer to the nuclear club.  India also has a strong military.

I think there are similarities between the two countries. Both have huge populations of over a billion people, both have a large agrarian peasantry and both have large urban metropolises where people flock to from the countryside in search of work and both countries economies have taken off following liberalisation. 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want.  Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be.

It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism.  Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion.  There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.

it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own
 
honestly most of the protesters are middle class  well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation..  and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
 
once this start, it wont stop until things change
 
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears

..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789.  Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th.  It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever.  This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising.

Lizzie our greatest revolution is in 1923 where my ancestors brought down the ottoman empire and established a new republic..

however, until today some foreign power combined with local betrayers eat up the republic and we reached today

Ah yes, under the leadership of the great Mustafa Kemal Atatürk as I understand who was instrumental in creating a modern, democratic, and secular nation-state, a Republic, in 1923.

[cem_devecioglu]

  ..but only after Deng Xiaoping liberalised the economy in the 1980's. 
 

 
 
China was a planned economy and completed most of its development under this state.. And although there are liberal reforms still its a planned economy

[cem_devecioglu]

... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want.  Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be.

It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism.  Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion.  There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.

it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own
 
honestly most of the protesters are middle class  well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation..  and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
 
once this start, it wont stop until things change
 
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears

..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789.  Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th.  It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever.  This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising.

Lizzie our greatest revolution is in 1923 where my ancestors brought down the ottoman empire and established a new republic..

however, until today some foreign power combined with local betrayers eat up the republic and we reached today

Ah yes, under the leadership of the great Mustafa Kemal Atatürk as I understand who was instrumental in creating a modern, democratic, and secular nation-state, a Republic, in 1923.

yes Lizzie..  he was a great commander and a leader.. if he wasnt there at the correct time and place we would be very similiar to other middle east countries ..
 
probably still ruled by an emperor although some tries to be ..

[dbug]

No I think that means google rules, unless you are smart enough to use wikipedia and came across it that way.

Probably not

Or maybe you get all your info first hand.  Your right hand

Highlighted text exactly as on Wikipedia (see link post #148 ) - normal to put quoted text in "", not post it as your own words.   Thats misleading

[dbdb]

If China had been an open and free democratic country since the demise of the Emperors in 1916, with a free market economy and the rule of law, the world would be a very different place.  A strong China in the 1930's might have deterred Japanese ambitions then, which might have led to different outcomes in WW2 and the Cold War.  They would probably now be the worlds largest economy and possibly the world's biggest military power, both of which they may well achieve in the coming years anyway, but only after Deng Xiaoping liberalised the economy in the 1980's.  Incidentally China has been a nuclear power since the 1960's and is a permanent member of the UN Security Council, they have a standing army of over 2 million, so I doubt they would be occupied by another country, democracy or not.

I don't disagree with that but there are a lot of ifs.  I don't see becoming a capitalist based economy as being a choice by some small clique, or a choice by all the population, there's much more too it than that.  China couldn't have been a capitalist in the 1930s even it it wanted to.  I think you have in mind some mystical link between western democracy and a capitalist  economy - that if ony countries had western democracy and liberalised their economy they would boom quickly into advanced capitalism. I see it as the other way round, you get what we call democracy (yeah sure) when the country becomes capitalist. 

India was as you rightly say, occupied by us, but it was not a democracy before the British arrived and certainly wasn't under British rule.  Again India's economy has flourished since the economy was liberalised in the 1990's and it is a relative newcomer to the nuclear club.  India also has a strong military.

Agree with all that too, my point was that when it was fully feudal it had monarchy/dictatorship, and got occupied by the then most advanced capitalist power in the World, us,  for its resources and location.

I think there are similarities between the two countries. Both have huge populations of over a billion people, both have a large agrarian peasantry and both have large urban metropolises where people flock to from the countryside in search of work and both countries economies have taken off following liberalisation. 

India's population density is nearly 3 times that of China though (note for sad dbug whose only interest in this thread seems to be stalking me - I didn't count them all, I looked it up on the web)

[Rods2]

Cem, you were very lucky to have the right visionary man in the right place at the right time.

Modern Germany would not be the industrial powerhouse it is if they had also not had the right man at the right time at the end of WWII. Ludwig Erhard had a profound effect on how Western German recovered economically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Erhard

[Jabe]

Cem, you were very lucky to have the right visionary man in the right place at the right time.

Modern Germany would not be the industrial powerhouse it is if they had also not had the right man at the right time at the end of WWII. Ludwig Erhard had a profound effect on how Western German recovered economically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Erhard

With lots and lots of cheap labourers from...

[cem_devecioglu]

Cem, you were very lucky to have the right visionary man in the right place at the right time.

Modern Germany would not be the industrial powerhouse it is if they had also not had the right man at the right time at the end of WWII. Ludwig Erhard had a profound effect on how Western German recovered economically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Erhard

With lots and lots of cheap labourers from...

yep.. from our country.. and there are lots of bad stories how they behaved to our workers
 

[cem_devecioglu]

now watching the tv , there are lots of discussion forums organized in parks in every city..
 
and do you know whats the worst side of having an incompetent , incapable pm ?
 
now everyone thinks I can be a pm , so we have 80 million pm candidates
 
someone must tell them that no one can be a pm by a strong mouth