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[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

'dangle berries', utter 'dangle berries'. He (sadly) had no competition and being elected to three straight terms only occurred by bribing the scrounging electorate. We're still paying for it now both at home and abroad

The only way is Out and we're going regardless.

Yes. The standard of the opposition plays a large part in who becomes PM. All Thatcher had to contend with was Michael Foot in 1983 and Kinnock in 1987.  She had it easy.

Much the same applies today with Theresa May. She doesn't need to lead or inspire all she needs to do is defeat Jeremy Corbyn. Shouldn't prove insurmountable.
 

[Viral_Jim]

Yes. The standard of the opposition plays a large part in who becomes PM. All Thatcher had to contend with was Michael Foot in 1983 and Kinnock in 1987.  She had it easy.

Much the same applies today with Theresa May. She doesn't need to lead or inspire all she needs to do is defeat Jeremy Corbyn. Shouldn't prove insurmountable.

This is why I suspect we won't see a snap general election. May won't waste the opportunity to batter corbyn at the polls, she'll save it for when she really needs it

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Re Tony Blair. He didn't have much to do with the so called peace process * It was Mo Mowlam who did all the work, with him taking all the credit in front of the cameras at the end.
* It was actually a surrender to the terrorists which involved telling a huge number of lies to the electorate in order to get them to vote for it. It was appeasement, and history shows appeasement never works in the long term. So watch this space.

TB -  the members of the media who were in favour of Brexit were - The Daily Mail (but not the Mail on Sunday) The Telegraph, the Express and possibly the Sun. Cant remember about the Sun tbh.
The rest of the printed media and all of the broadcast media were very much in favour of remain.
Many people (myself included) believe it wont hurt us badly, quite the opposite in fact. You and many others believe it will hurt us badly.
None of us has a crysral ball, so we shall just have to wait and see.
At least we are about to become a self governing, independent, democratic nation once again. Is there ever a bad time to to revert to that ?

[STEMO]

A shagged out old fart. That's about right. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

A shagged out old fart. That's about right. 

Consider it a term of endearment.

[Lizzie Zoom]

As said before I am a 'remainer' and not a 'remoaner'. We lost. It happens. That's life.

In my opinion it was the young people who 'lost' the vote for remain. Most, but not all, are natural 'remainers' and therein lies the problem. They 'remained' in bed, they 'remained' in the pub, they 'remained' glued to their playstation or X-box etc etc. A bunch of able-bodied lazy bastards who refuse to take adult responsibility and then bleat about it after the event.

I mean, if a shagged-out old fart like STMO can drag himself to the polling station to vote then why couldn't significant numbers of fit  eighteen, nineteen, and twenty year olds do the same.

I agree with that. Apathy due to a mistrust of politics by so many of the young made a huge difference. It is a fact that they will be affected most in the long term by whatever transpires.

[Rods2]

To a "remainer" like me (I know in a 48% minority of the few that actually voted!! ) I see the costs of leaving the UK as being far, far greater than any leaving fees. The cost to jobs, the prices we pay for goods, and the cutting off of a plentiful supply of labour for our industries, along with the possible break up of the Union, is going to be horrendous and madness To repeat the words of Robert Wallpole during the South Sea Bubble, " They ring their bells now, soon they will be wringing their hands".

As a proud Tory, I must admit I like the approach being given to Brexit by Tony Blair. He supports correctly the idea we must have another vote on Brexit once all the FACTS of our potential leaving are known by the general public and politicians alike.

To me blindly walking into a potential disaster for Britain because a small majority of the public voted for it before they really knew them without an escape plan is absolute nonsense.

Lizzie politics is not about facts but opinions and in a shifting dynamic system there are a few fixed facts, but many dynamically changing ones, as what might apply this week can be completely different next week due to what Macmillan told us "events dear boy events". For Tony BLiar and CaMoron facts were what their daily sound bite said they were. Tomorrow there will bring new sound bites, based on that days 'facts'.

I look forward to when a remoaners prediction actually comes true as project fear was exactly that. The fact that gravity economic models were used for their predictions was totally debunked in a paper by the professor who invented the gravity economic model explaining why it was totally inappropriate for #Brexit, but they used it because it gave the project fear results which was deemed as politically useful to Remainers. The UK engaging and exporting much more with the rest of the world, by creating bilateral trade agreements and boosting mutual trade may actually be the reverse of your pessimism on the future and a new golden age for the UK in much the same way by leaving the gold standard early in the 1930's we did not have a recession / depression like the US and France. Asia, South America and increasingly Africa are where economic growth is really happening and going to continue to happen in the 21st century as they continue to industrialize and because of their population growth.

The Euro is only a half currency and cannot survive in its present form and politically it cannot be reformed to become a proper currency as that would involve the pooling of all national sovereign debts and the ECB issuing bonds, being the bank of last resort and fiscal transfers from richer to poorer areas within the EU. Any German politician agreeing to this would be committing political suicide so it will never happen. The Euro will soldier on until poorer countries leave, which will be forced by the losers in no growth countries or it collapses. The best exit route would actually be for Germany to leave the Euro. The EU as an appointed dictatorship has no interest in economic growth where social engineering is always centre stage with a considerable environmental and climate change slant. Many of the EU policies are quite ruinous for trade which is why the EU global share of trade is dropping twice as fast as that of the US.

[Lizzie Zoom]

To a "remainer" like me (I know in a 48% minority of the few that actually voted!! ) I see the costs of leaving the UK as being far, far greater than any leaving fees. The cost to jobs, the prices we pay for goods, and the cutting off of a plentiful supply of labour for our industries, along with the possible break up of the Union, is going to be horrendous and madness To repeat the words of Robert Wallpole during the South Sea Bubble, " They ring their bells now, soon they will be wringing their hands".

As a proud Tory, I must admit I like the approach being given to Brexit by Tony Blair. He supports correctly the idea we must have another vote on Brexit once all the FACTS of our potential leaving are known by the general public and politicians alike.

To me blindly walking into a potential disaster for Britain because a small majority of the public voted for it before they really knew them without an escape plan is absolute nonsense.

Lizzie politics is not about facts but opinions and in a shifting dynamic system there are a few fixed facts, but many dynamically changing ones, as what might apply this week can be completely different next week due to what Macmillan told us "events dear boy events". For Tony BLiar and CaMoron facts were what their daily sound bite said they were. Tomorrow there will bring new sound bites, based on that days 'facts'.

I look forward to when a remoaners prediction actually comes true as project fear was exactly that. The fact that gravity economic models were used for their predictions was totally debunked in a paper by the professor who invented the gravity economic model explaining why it was totally inappropriate for #Brexit, but they used it because it gave the project fear results which was deemed as politically useful to Remainers. The UK engaging and exporting much more with the rest of the world, by creating bilateral trade agreements and boosting mutual trade may actually be the reverse of your pessimism on the future and a new golden age for the UK in much the same way by leaving the gold standard early in the 1930's we did not have a recession / depression like the US and France. Asia, South America and increasingly Africa are where economic growth is really happening and going to continue to happen in the 21st century as they continue to industrialize and because of their population growth.

The Euro is only a half currency and cannot survive in its present form and politically it cannot be reformed to become a proper currency as that would involve the pooling of all national sovereign debts and the ECB issuing bonds, being the bank of last resort and fiscal transfers from richer to poorer areas within the EU. Any German politician agreeing to this would be committing political suicide so it will never happen. The Euro will soldier on until poorer countries leave, which will be forced by the losers in no growth countries or it collapses. The best exit route would actually be for Germany to leave the Euro. The EU as an appointed dictatorship has no interest in economic growth where social engineering is always centre stage with a considerable environmental and climate change slant. Many of the EU policies are quite ruinous for trade which is why the EU global share of trade is dropping twice as fast as that of the US.

As a student of politics I agree with everything you state Rod. I just have a different take on what Brexit may eventually mean, especially if it is a Hard one..........but that is politics, and as you rightly state a matter of opinion rather than fact.

It is a game; a serious game involving lives, but a game none the less!

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I think Lizzie has a point.

We are leaving the EU. We all accept that. However that doesn't mean we are not allowed to have our say in how brexit is handled.

Personally I'm sad that the House of Lords folded so easily. They could have been part of the 'balance' needed to appeal to not only the 17 million 'leavers' but also the 16 million 'remainers'. We may be in the minority but it is a big minority.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

To a "remainer" like me (I know in a 48% minority of the few that actually voted!! ) I see the costs of leaving the UK as being far, far greater than any leaving fees. The cost to jobs, the prices we pay for goods, and the cutting off of a plentiful supply of labour for our industries, along with the possible break up of the Union, is going to be horrendous and madness To repeat the words of Robert Wallpole during the South Sea Bubble, " They ring their bells now, soon they will be wringing their hands".

As a proud Tory, I must admit I like the approach being given to Brexit by Tony Blair. He supports correctly the idea we must have another vote on Brexit once all the FACTS of our potential leaving are known by the general public and politicians alike.

To me blindly walking into a potential disaster for Britain because a small majority of the public voted for it before they really knew them without an escape plan is absolute nonsense.

Lizzie politics is not about facts but opinions and in a shifting dynamic system there are a few fixed facts, but many dynamically changing ones, as what might apply this week can be completely different next week due to what Macmillan told us "events dear boy events". For Tony BLiar and CaMoron facts were what their daily sound bite said they were. Tomorrow there will bring new sound bites, based on that days 'facts'.

I look forward to when a remoaners prediction actually comes true as project fear was exactly that. The fact that gravity economic models were used for their predictions was totally debunked in a paper by the professor who invented the gravity economic model explaining why it was totally inappropriate for #Brexit, but they used it because it gave the project fear results which was deemed as politically useful to Remainers. The UK engaging and exporting much more with the rest of the world, by creating bilateral trade agreements and boosting mutual trade may actually be the reverse of your pessimism on the future and a new golden age for the UK in much the same way by leaving the gold standard early in the 1930's we did not have a recession / depression like the US and France. Asia, South America and increasingly Africa are where economic growth is really happening and going to continue to happen in the 21st century as they continue to industrialize and because of their population growth.

The Euro is only a half currency and cannot survive in its present form and politically it cannot be reformed to become a proper currency as that would involve the pooling of all national sovereign debts and the ECB issuing bonds, being the bank of last resort and fiscal transfers from richer to poorer areas within the EU. Any German politician agreeing to this would be committing political suicide so it will never happen. The Euro will soldier on until poorer countries leave, which will be forced by the losers in no growth countries or it collapses. The best exit route would actually be for Germany to leave the Euro. The EU as an appointed dictatorship has no interest in economic growth where social engineering is always centre stage with a considerable environmental and climate change slant. Many of the EU policies are quite ruinous for trade which is why the EU global share of trade is dropping twice as fast as that of the US.

Mr Rods. 'Remoaners' do exist and they are pissed because they didn't get the result they expected. That is democracy. Bad luck.

But most 'remainers' are not like that. We took a different polnt of view, that's all.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I think Lizzie has a point.

We are leaving the EU. We all accept that. However that doesn't mean we are not allowed to have our say in how brexit is handled.

Personally I'm sad that the House of Lords folded so easily. They could have been part of the 'balance' needed to appeal to not only the 17 million 'leavers' but also the 16 million 'remainers'. We may be in the minority but it is a big minority.

 

Out of a population of 62 million, with a fair proportion of those with voting rights which I understand stands at about 45 million   That is why some of us remainers feel that another vote once all the facts are known should be justified

[Sir Tigger KC]

I think Lizzie has a point.

We are leaving the EU. We all accept that. However that doesn't mean we are not allowed to have our say in how brexit is handled.

Personally I'm sad that the House of Lords folded so easily. They could have been part of the 'balance' needed to appeal to not only the 17 million 'leavers' but also the 16 million 'remainers'. We may be in the minority but it is a big minority.

 

Out of a population of 62 million, with a fair proportion of those with voting rights

Had we voted narrowly to remain in the EU, there would have been no attempt to appease the millions of leave voters. The whole issue would have been kicked into the long grass...... 

As to the House of Lords, I am disgusted that British parliamentarians voted to effectively sell British citizens living in EU countries down the river! 

[Doctor Gollum]

Hang on a second... Those expats are just that... They have made a conscious decision to live overseas.

If I moved to, say Gran Canaria, to live then I would do so on the not unreasonable expectation of becoming a Spanish citizen, likewise the US, Canada or New Zealand. Holding a British passport, or any other for that matter, is a privilege...

About time people respected that fact.

[Rods2]

One of our best with a global reputation for economic modelling is Prof. Patrick Minford who has been crunching the economic effects of #Brexit.

The gain for the UK is very dependent upon how #Brexit is implemented with the best case by adopting Universal Free Trade with the world of a 4% growth in GDP over and above current growth and an 8% drop in prices even with no trade agreement with the EU so we have to revert to WTO tariffs. I came to the conclusion sometime a go that the only way to actually leave the EU is with a clean (hard) Brexit by leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union.

This is the report by Prof Patrick Minford:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58a0b77fe58c624794f29287/t/58caadac03596e662a460dcb/1489677760066/UK-WTO-Trade-Strategy-Non-Cooperative-Continent-17-02-2017.pdf

and here is another very good reports by another high profile economist Liam Halligan on the advantages of Clean Brexit:

https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Policy-Exchange-Clean-Brexit-16th-January-2017.pdf

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I think Lizzie has a point.

We are leaving the EU. We all accept that. However that doesn't mean we are not allowed to have our say in how brexit is handled.

Personally I'm sad that the House of Lords folded so easily. They could have been part of the 'balance' needed to appeal to not only the 17 million 'leavers' but also the 16 million 'remainers'. We may be in the minority but it is a big minority.

 

Out of a population of 62 million, with a fair proportion of those with voting rights which I understand stands at about 45 million   That is why some of us remainers feel that another vote once all the facts are known should be justified

This is standard EU practice, historically where referendums are concerned. They strongly discourage them, but if they take place and the electorate have the audacity to give the wrong result, they make them vote again until they get the right result.
Just one more reason why we should get out of this undemocratic, protectionist, soviet style bloc asap.
Several recent polls have said that if the referendum were rerun today the vote to leave would be much higher. Due to the fact that project fear has been shown to be one huge pack of lies.
Hard / soft Brexit is a media soundbite perpetuated by project fear. It should actually be "real Brexit or pretend Brexit".
To remain in the single market, basically means EU membership in all but name.