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[crazyjoetavola]

Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan"  capitalism.

......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]

[Nickbat]

Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan"  capitalism.

......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]

Great link, Zulu. 

Definitely not a nice bloke. 

[crazyjoetavola]

Green cars are not so green. Prius for instance. Ingredients for the batteries are mined in Canada (if i recal correctly) then shipped to the Far East for production. Then there's the diposal of said batteries.
Remember the M5 V's Prius saga on top gear. I rest on your face Greenies
If you care to dig deeper, there's lots to find out about so called green cars

The comparison in relation to the BMW was flawed as the Prius was never designed to perform in this way and it was naughty for that programme to suggest that it was a valid test. It was a piece tarted up for the sake of visual impact alone.

Concerning the material for the batteries Pete, may I refer you to the following?

On a similar vein (no pun intended)

Put Sudbury, Canada (SAS / MAN border) into google earth and look at the surrounding moonscape.

Sudbury is the site of one of the main nickel smelters and the pollutants from the flue have killed off all vegetation for 100's of miles, you can even guess the direction of the prevailing winds from the pics.
I worked at the nickel mine in Flin Flon just south of Sudbury and it is almost desert going north towards the smelter.

Add the environmental impact of shipping the nickel to the UK for processing, then on to Japan for turning into batteries, then back to europe fitted into Prius cars etc and the 'Green' ticket looks somewhat kahki.

Concerning the material for the batteries you might want to look at this Matchless;

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-417227/Toyota-factory.html

There was, and still is, a lot of black propaganda surrounding this issue.  The point is that at least an alternative is being tried, it's a small step on the journey. 

This is why I said before that the 'green' label unfairly saddles the car with something that the Prius or any other low emission can't sustain, as the nature of the final product will always have an environmental impact.   It's still a reasonable effort however

[Banjax]

Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan"  capitalism.

......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]

Great link, Zulu. 

Definitely not a nice bloke. 

i'm surprised you fall into the trap of condemning a mans behaviour without looking at the circumstances - if i was at war and killed an enemy - would that make me a murderer? you have to remember he lived an extraordinary life, fighting injustice, fighting to relieve people of poverty and overthrow tyrannical governments with guerilla warfare - its not pleasant, never has been and never will be - sometimes the ends justify the means. i'd put him up with any great leader you care to mention.
how many died under churchills orders? or blairs? or thatchers?
seems that the ends justify the means in some causes.
we have difficulty in judging a man so single minded in purpose and action as to be obsessive and insane  to our eyes, we who live in modern western society - built on the sweat and labour of the oppressed Che spent his life defending




wow.......we've really gone off topic on this one - i just thought the 10 worst cars were actually some of the best!!

[crazyjoetavola]

Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan"  capitalism.

......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]

Great link, Zulu. 

Definitely not a nice bloke. 

without looking at the circumstances - if i was at war and killed an enemy - would that make me a murderer? you have to remember he lived an extraordinary life, fighting injustice, fighting to relieve people of poverty and overthrow tyrannical governments with guerilla warfare - its not pleasant, never has been and never will be - sometimes the ends justify the means. i'd put him up with any great leader you care to mention.
how many died under churchills orders? or blairs? or thatchers?
seems that the ends justify the means in some causes.
we have difficulty in judging a man so single minded in purpose and action as to be obsessive and insane  to our eyes, we who live in modern western society - built on the sweat and labour of the oppressed Che spent his life defending




wow.......we've really gone off topic on this one - i just thought the 10 worst cars were actually some of the best!!

...indeed bannjaxx - remember - the freedom of the open road to the soundtrack of a Northstar V8 - that's life worth living


i'm surprised you fall into the trap of condemning a mans behaviour

...forgive me for that, don't forget I've been a functionary of the state for more time than I care to remember, so condemnation lies well within my capability, however, I do have balance and don't accept that all things 'Whitehall' is necessarily the only tenet by which one's opinion should be guided.

you have to remember he lived an extraordinary life, fighting injustice, fighting to relieve people of poverty and overthrow tyrannical governments with guerrilla warfare

.....as many have done, there is a fine line however between fighting for justice and adopting a dictatorial stance when that ideal is questioned by the very people you're supposedly fighting for.  This happens to some extent or other in most cases I would suggest.


blairs

...this self-serving gutless individual can never be justifiably referred to a leader worthy of note.


seems that the ends justify the means in some causes.
we have difficulty in judging a man so single minded in purpose and action as to be obsessive and insane  to our eyes, we who live in modern western society - built on the sweat and labour of the oppressed Che spent his life defending

.......the assertion that the ends will always justify the means is open to question bannjaxx - it depends upon the values by which it is judged, and on many occasions, the use of this statement has lessened the impact of some very questionable acts.

When single-minded individuals decide to involve themselves in the overthrow of the status quo - for whatever reason- the risk of their becoming dictatorial and oppressive to their fellow countrymen/women is more than possible.

......did his contribution make any real difference - is Cuba considered to be a better place, a beacon for the net result of revolution?  I'm unsure.  I do admit that the shunning of the island by consecutive US administrations has not helped, but in general, the basic tenet of the communistic ideal will always fail to gain traction, as most people remain individuals, and where this ideal is enforced, the only people to suffer are those who are touted as being the reason for that very ideal to be held in the first place.

.......some of the most oppressive regimes in recent history have been established through the desire for communist revolution.

I do realise that I must appear to be rather an enigma, an establishment figure who can embrace some decidedly non-establishment ideas.  Isn’t that what free thinking all about?  That’s the advantage of living in a relatively free society where such thinking is not considered to be a threat to the state – for the moment at least.

[cem_devecioglu]

Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan"  capitalism.

......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]

sorry Zulu but this film really neglect what he was trying to do.. and judging him only from their point of view..

[cem_devecioglu]

Can I remind, before Castro and Che, Cuba was a place for some rich(as origin is known I dont mention here)  to satisfy their any kind of pleasures 
and an island which they can abuse how they want..And was managed by who, a real dictator ..
And now look Cuba... At least they can have free health and educational services and dont live as slaves of rich..And I must here really note their health services are above many countries..including mine.. :-/

As usual all west media attack them with every opportunity..

And another fact: those who escape from Cuba

question: who used them , the group who killed Kennedy..

And I must add, US tried every possible effort to squeeze their neck

[crazyjoetavola]

Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan"  capitalism.

......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]

sorry Zulu but this film really neglect what he was trying to do.. and judging him only from their point of view..

...that's right cem but it's as valid as the many films supporting him

[crazyjoetavola]

Can I remind, before Castro and Che, Cuba was a place for some rich(as origin is known I dont mention here)  to satisfy their any kind of pleasures 
and an island which they can abuse how they want..And was managed by who, a real dictator ..
And now look Cuba... At least they can have free health and educational services and dont live as slaves of rich..And I must here really note their health services are above many countries..including mine.. :-/

As usual all west media attack them with every opportunity..

And another fact: those who escape from Cuba

question: who used them , the group who killed Kennedy..

And I must add, US tried every possible effort to squeeze their neck

....I quite agree cem the people of Cuba were exploited just as much under the Battista regime but they're not exactly free under the present one.

Dissent within that country is harshly dealt with - it's how dictatorial regimes survive.

The US did indeed place unfair constraints on sensible relations with the country, this was wrong, but it also played into the hands of Castro - supporting the notion that everything western was bad.

I have to say that the majority of people leaving the island, in very dangerous circumstances, seemed to be doing so for their own purposes and not not the good of others 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3644814/Cuba-wont-shed-a-tear-for-Fidel-Castro.html

[cem_devecioglu]

fact is you cant find any real objective news on any country which the media groups dont accept..

and another fact is unfortunately media dont care to be objective on subjects like that..

its similiar as finding an alive bunny living between carnivores.. :-/

remember the film matrix 1 ..there were many messages embedded for the one whose interested..


briefly it says the perception depends what you are given..


as from my previous posts, effecting human behaviour ,ideas, thoughts is proven to be a subject of science..

and sometimes as simple as the magician do.. they just made you look at the different point and see the expected..

and sometimes even we dont want to see the naked reality..


I myself was living in dreams of a good life with a good job and salary until I finish the university..

Then I start to realise after some jobless years without money and in need of help from the parents..

Then some very hard jobs for many years that I rarely see my home and bed..


And I see that we are trained and educated for a very civilised and ideal life style which was not existent..


I hope with my limited English I could tell what I mean :-/

[Banjax]

Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan"  capitalism.

......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]

Great link, Zulu. 

Definitely not a nice bloke. 

without looking at the circumstances - if i was at war and killed an enemy - would that make me a murderer? you have to remember he lived an extraordinary life, fighting injustice, fighting to relieve people of poverty and overthrow tyrannical governments with guerilla warfare - its not pleasant, never has been and never will be - sometimes the ends justify the means. i'd put him up with any great leader you care to mention.
how many died under churchills orders? or blairs? or thatchers?
seems that the ends justify the means in some causes.
we have difficulty in judging a man so single minded in purpose and action as to be obsessive and insane  to our eyes, we who live in modern western society - built on the sweat and labour of the oppressed Che spent his life defending




wow.......we've really gone off topic on this one - i just thought the 10 worst cars were actually some of the best!!

...indeed bannjaxx - remember - the freedom of the open road to the soundtrack of a Northstar V8 - that's life worth living


i'm surprised you fall into the trap of condemning a mans behaviour

...forgive me for that, don't forget I've been a functionary of the state for more time than I care to remember, so condemnation lies well within my capability, however, I do have balance and don't accept that all things 'Whitehall' is necessarily the only tenet by which one's opinion should be guided.

you have to remember he lived an extraordinary life, fighting injustice, fighting to relieve people of poverty and overthrow tyrannical governments with guerrilla warfare

.....as many have done, there is a fine line however between fighting for justice and adopting a dictatorial stance when that ideal is questioned by the very people you're supposedly fighting for.  This happens to some extent or other in most cases I would suggest.


blairs

...this self-serving gutless individual can never be justifiably referred to a leader worthy of note.


seems that the ends justify the means in some causes.
we have difficulty in judging a man so single minded in purpose and action as to be obsessive and insane  to our eyes, we who live in modern western society - built on the sweat and labour of the oppressed Che spent his life defending

.......the assertion that the ends will always justify the means is open to question bannjaxx - it depends upon the values by which it is judged, and on many occasions, the use of this statement has lessened the impact of some very questionable acts.

When single-minded individuals decide to involve themselves in the overthrow of the status quo - for whatever reason- the risk of their becoming dictatorial and oppressive to their fellow countrymen/women is more than possible.

......did his contribution make any real difference - is Cuba considered to be a better place, a beacon for the net result of revolution?  I'm unsure.  I do admit that the shunning of the island by consecutive US administrations has not helped, but in general, the basic tenet of the communistic ideal will always fail to gain traction, as most people remain individuals, and where this ideal is enforced, the only people to suffer are those who are touted as being the reason for that very ideal to be held in the first place.

.......some of the most oppressive regimes in recent history have been established through the desire for communist revolution.

I do realise that I must appear to be rather an enigma, an establishment figure who can embrace some decidedly non-establishment ideas.  Isn’t that what free thinking all about?  That’s the advantage of living in a relatively free society where such thinking is not considered to be a threat to the state – for the moment at least.

i agree with most of what you say Zulu - as usual you're irritatingly well balanced and fair !!

i don't deny he wasn't a saint - but really, he wasn't in a position to be - i believe he often stated that to overthrow a regime you can't do it without violence(it was much more poetic than that - but i can't recall the exact quote) - i actually dont agree with that- i believe you can overthrow dictatorships without bloodshed - it just hasn't happened yet (to my knowledge - i'm prepared to be wrong on that)

i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you  ) - i remain impressed with Che Guaverra and his life, achievements and beliefs in what was right and wrong.

to me he's a folk hero alongside Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King.

you may disagree with his politics - you can't deny his heart and passion.

oh and Cem - you're right about media portrayals and how people are viewed in different parts of the world - i remember Mrs Thatcher referring to Mandela as a terrorist and Gen Pinochet a hero!!! one man's freedom fighter........

[crazyjoetavola]

fact is you cant find any real objective news on any country which the media groups dont accept..

and another fact is unfortunately media dont care to be objective on subjects like that..

its similiar as finding an alive bunny living between carnivores.. :-/

remember the film matrix 1 ..there were many messages embedded for the one whose interested..


briefly it says the perception depends what you are given..


as from my previous posts, effecting human behaviour ,ideas, thoughts is proven to be a subject of science..

and sometimes as simple as the magician do.. they just made you look at the different point and see the expected..

and sometimes even we dont want to see the naked reality..


I myself was living in dreams of a good life with a good job and salary until I finish the university..

Then I start to realise after some jobless years without money and in need of help from the parents..

Then some very hard jobs for many years that I rarely see my home and bed..


And I see that we are trained and educated for a very civilised and ideal life style which was not existent..


I hope with my limited English I could tell what I mean :-/

cem your English is cristal clear and I envy your ability to converse in a second (or more) language.

We are much closer in our appreciation of things than you might well imagine and in my case, I am honoured to be so

[Banjax]

fact is you cant find any real objective news on any country which the media groups dont accept..

and another fact is unfortunately media dont care to be objective on subjects like that..

its similiar as finding an alive bunny living between carnivores.. :-/

remember the film matrix 1 ..there were many messages embedded for the one whose interested..


briefly it says the perception depends what you are given..


as from my previous posts, effecting human behaviour ,ideas, thoughts is proven to be a subject of science..

and sometimes as simple as the magician do.. they just made you look at the different point and see the expected..

and sometimes even we dont want to see the naked reality..


I myself was living in dreams of a good life with a good job and salary until I finish the university..

Then I start to realise after some jobless years without money and in need of help from the parents..

Then some very hard jobs for many years that I rarely see my home and bed..


And I see that we are trained and educated for a very civilised and ideal life style which was not existent..


I hope with my limited English I could tell what I mean :-/

cem your English is cristal clear and I envy your ability to converse in a second (or more) language.

We are much closer in our appreciation of things than you might well imagine and in my case, I am honoured to be so

hear hear 

[albitz]

Martin Luther King and Ghandi are both big heros of mine(didnt Ghandi overthrow a type of regime without violence?),I wouldnt mention either Mandela or guevarra in the same sentence as either of them.

[cem_devecioglu]

fact is you cant find any real objective news on any country which the media groups dont accept..

and another fact is unfortunately media dont care to be objective on subjects like that..

its similiar as finding an alive bunny living between carnivores.. :-/

remember the film matrix 1 ..there were many messages embedded for the one whose interested..


briefly it says the perception depends what you are given..


as from my previous posts, effecting human behaviour ,ideas, thoughts is proven to be a subject of science..

and sometimes as simple as the magician do.. they just made you look at the different point and see the expected..

and sometimes even we dont want to see the naked reality..


I myself was living in dreams of a good life with a good job and salary until I finish the university..

Then I start to realise after some jobless years without money and in need of help from the parents..

Then some very hard jobs for many years that I rarely see my home and bed..


And I see that we are trained and educated for a very civilised and ideal life style which was not existent..


I hope with my limited English I could tell what I mean :-/

cem your English is cristal clear and I envy your ability to converse in a second (or more) language.

We are much closer in our appreciation of things than you might well imagine and in my case, I am honoured to be so

 

and I'm also honoured sir

Thank you