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[Banjax]

You can bet your bottom dollar that the U.S. is working behind the scenes to try to steer events towards an outcome which is suitable to them/the western world/ and the middle east itself.
The thought of Egypt falling into the hands of extremists will make their blood run cold. It could be the spark that sets of the powderkeg in the middle east, or at least makes Israel more nervous and vulnerable and therefore more likely to react aggressively. It cant be avoided imo, while there are forces working to achieve an extremist outcome (probably backed by Iran) then the west has little option but to counter that.
Its how they go about it which is the important thing.

If the Egyptian people decide they want to elect Muslim extremists, however unpalatable that is to the west, its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? 

[albitz]

Fair enough, as long as they stay within their own borders,are completely insular, and dont try to influence or get involved in anything outside their own country.
But the fact is that Muslim fundamentalists see themselves as a global movement with a global mission and they have had a lot of success in spreading their poison across the globe.
Thats why the west have no realistic choice but to be involved at some level.

[Banjax]

Fair enough, as long as they stay within their own borders,are completely insular, and dont try to influence or get involved in anything outside their own country.
But the fact is that Muslim fundamentalists see themselves as a global movement with a global mission and they have had a lot of success in spreading their poison across the globe.
Thats why the west have no realistic choice but to be involved at some level.

thats a fair point Albs, but the same could easily be said of the USA, surely? They'll support the evilest of dictators while it suits them, no wonder its so easy for muslim extremists to recruit terrorists against the west - we hardly set a shining example of democracy do we? besides theres over 1.5bn muslims, i'd say very few are hellbent on destroying the west or they would have by now - dont compare how many muslims we've killed illegally with how many westerners have been killed by muslim extremists its amazing we're still around if they're all nuts quite frankly 

[albitz]

Fair enough, as long as they stay within their own borders,are completely insular, and dont try to influence or get involved in anything outside their own country.
But the fact is that Muslim fundamentalists see themselves as a global movement with a global mission and they have had a lot of success in spreading their poison across the globe.
Thats why the west have no realistic choice but to be involved at some level.

thats a fair point Albs, but the same could easily be said of the USA, surely? They'll support the evilest of dictators while it suits them, no wonder its so easy for muslim extremists to recruit terrorists against the west - we hardly set a shining example of democracy do we? besides theres over 1.5bn muslims, i'd say very few are hellbent on destroying the west or they would have by now - dont compare how many muslims we've killed illegally with how many westerners have been killed by muslim extremists its amazing we're still around if they're all nuts quite frankly 

Christ ! where do I start ? ::)The USA and other western govts. have (and im sure still do) give support to regimes which are far from fair and democratic.They would Im sure argue with some justification that they were usually choosing the lesser of two evils. This was especially true during the cold war period where they would support a right wing dictatorship, because the alternative was a Soviet supported communist dictatorship.The same has also happened with middle eastern regimes - supporting Saddam, rather than letting the nutters who rule Iran, take over Iraq and gain a lot of power in the region and further afield.
I did not and never would suggest that all Muslims are extremists who want to kill all us Westerners, no idea why your answer infers that I did ? :-/
"We" didnt illegally kill Muslims - our (Liebore) govt. sent our armed forces to war against the wishes of its electorate,legal advisers, the UN and anyone else you can think of who had the right to have some say in the matter.
Your right, we havent been a shining example of democracy - Blair suspended the democratic process completely in this country, until it came to election time and then he lied through his teeth (even by the normal political standards) to people, who quite frankly are too stupid to be allowed to vote anyway.

P.S The U.S. pumps a lot $$$ in aid into Egypt (no doubt to buy leverage and help ensure stability) so they may well argue that it is their business.

[cem_devecioglu]

You can bet your bottom dollar that the U.S. is working behind the scenes to try to steer events towards an outcome which is suitable to them/the western world/ and the middle east itself.
The thought of Egypt falling into the hands of extremists will make their blood run cold. It could be the spark that sets of the powderkeg in the middle east, or at least makes Israel more nervous and vulnerable and therefore more likely to react aggressively. It cant be avoided imo, while there are forces working to achieve an extremist outcome (probably backed by Iran) then the west has little option but to counter that.
Its how they go about it which is the important thing.

If the Egyptian people decide they want to elect Muslim extremists, however unpalatable that is to the west, its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? 

I hate this "de ja vu"

noooooooooooo..

we have seen this film before..in iran.. usa made historical mistakes supporting the shah.. then the masses rebel against for "democracy" and what happened.. leftists helped.. and extremists cut the neck of those leftists .. never again

[cem_devecioglu]

people one day will understand that how dangerous religion can be..

[Lizzie_Zoom]

A full division of tanks rolled into Cairo today, with F16 jets screaming overhead.  But it seems the army is trying to stay onside with the protesters, and the USA have rubbed in the fact that the military hardware has been paid for by them!  US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has called for an "orderly transition" to democracy in Egypt.

Who's placing bets on how long President Hosni Mubarak can hold on for?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12319702


Yes, link is to the BBC    However I have also listened to the ITN News and their coverage was the same!!

[cem_devecioglu]

A full division of tanks rolled into Cairo today, with F16 jets screaming overhead.  But it seems the army is trying to stay onside with the protesters, and the USA have rubbed in the fact that the military hardware has been paid for by them!  US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has called for an "orderly transition" to democracy in Egypt.

Who's placing bets on how long President Hosni Mubarak can hold on for?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12319702


Yes, link is to the BBC    However I have also listened to the ITN News and their coverage was the same!!

his "best until" date is passed already :-/

[Banjax]

Fair enough, as long as they stay within their own borders,are completely insular, and dont try to influence or get involved in anything outside their own country.
But the fact is that Muslim fundamentalists see themselves as a global movement with a global mission and they have had a lot of success in spreading their poison across the globe.
Thats why the west have no realistic choice but to be involved at some level.

thats a fair point Albs, but the same could easily be said of the USA, surely? They'll support the evilest of dictators while it suits them, no wonder its so easy for muslim extremists to recruit terrorists against the west - we hardly set a shining example of democracy do we? besides theres over 1.5bn muslims, i'd say very few are hellbent on destroying the west or they would have by now - dont compare how many muslims we've killed illegally with how many westerners have been killed by muslim extremists its amazing we're still around if they're all nuts quite frankly 

Christ ! where do I start ? ::)The USA and other western govts. have (and im sure still do) give support to regimes which are far from fair and democratic.They would Im sure argue with some justification that they were usually choosing the lesser of two evils. This was especially true during the cold war period where they would support a right wing dictatorship, because the alternative was a Soviet supported communist dictatorship.The same has also happened with middle eastern regimes - supporting Saddam, rather than letting the nutters who rule Iran, take over Iraq and gain a lot of power in the region and further afield.
I did not and never would suggest that all Muslims are extremists who want to kill all us Westerners, no idea why your answer infers that I did ? :-/
"We" didnt illegally kill Muslims - our (Liebore) govt. sent our armed forces to war against the wishes of its electorate,legal advisers, the UN and anyone else you can think of who had the right to have some say in the matter.
Your right, we havent been a shining example of democracy - Blair suspended the democratic process completely in this country, until it came to election time and then he lied through his teeth (even by the normal political standards) to people, who quite frankly are too stupid to be allowed to vote anyway.

P.S The U.S. pumps a lot $$$ in aid into Egypt (no doubt to buy leverage and help ensure stability) so they may well argue that it is their business.

of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says 

[cem_devecioglu]

I'm afraid the common denominator of these masses will be on the job again.. and plus , its always supported by some countries and finance which will soon be a power and rise as usual..

[Nickbat]

of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says 

I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
 

[cem_devecioglu]

of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says 

I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
 

religion and democracy , water and oil 


been there a hundred times.. done that a hundred times (history) .. No!

[Nickbat]

religion and democracy , water and oil 

been there a hundred times.. done that a hundred times (history) .. No!

Rubbish. There are plenty of deeply religious countries, both secular and non-secular, that are free and democratic. 

[cem_devecioglu]

religion and democracy , water and oil 

been there a hundred times.. done that a hundred times (history) .. No!

Rubbish. There are plenty of deeply religious countries, both secular and non-secular, that are free and democratic. 

first divide into two.. east and west..   for east trust me not worth talking about.. totally non-secular  ,  and if so , just on the paper..

and west.. passed from long historical religious wars , so got the lesson somewhat to an extent..  but if you dig a bit, you wont like what you see

commie countries not included for the obvious reason..

[cem_devecioglu]

and as for the democracy..  counting the votes one day and forgetting other times is not  democracy.. 

you know who rules..