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Author Topic: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?  (Read 8523 times)

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mathewst

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #75 on: 31 January 2011, 09:59:18 »

Thanks aaronjb but there are far beautiful places here like Dubrovnik, Trogir, Plitvice lakes, Brijuni islands etc. Split is nice but is still mainly just a transit city
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #76 on: 31 January 2011, 10:32:23 »

As I read from the newspapers all tourists trying to leave Egypt but interestingly Russian tourists refuse to leave ;D  I hope they wont come nose to nose with an extremist rebel !!  if this happens be prepared to change your religion quickly ;D ;D   
« Last Edit: 31 January 2011, 10:32:59 by cem_devecioglu »
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mathewst

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #77 on: 31 January 2011, 10:57:34 »

Quote
but interestingly Russian tourists refuse to leave
Hmmmm  probably there is still enough vodka in shops and hotels so they are staying
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #78 on: 31 January 2011, 13:08:37 »

There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.

What I can add though is never forget about the importance of "brotherhood" in both secular and deeply religious societies. That typical 'mans' habit of grouping or bonding together in a common shared sense of belonging.  It has driven conflict for centuries, and I see no evidence of it changing any time soon.

When this happens blood brotherhood seems to overtake religion.  Exceptions are of course scattered throughout history, with say the Christian Crusades and Elizabethan stand against Philip of Spain, in particular during the 1580s, culminating in the Spanish Armada of 1588, coming to mind.

But when Britain declared war on Germany in the August of 1914 their was open jubilation on the streets, with a chance to fight the growing threat to the Empire of the Hun.  No talk of religion as both were Chritian countries, and all rememberance of the Prussian army saving Wellington's bacon at Waterloo was forgotten.  I fear to say that even now many men would come together over any talk of fighting the French again (heaven forbid!!).  On that point even the welling patrisism, nationalism, and desire for world power for a new Empire took the Royal Navy fleet into battle against the French and Spanish fleet at Trafalgar on the 21st October 1805.  Once again no talk of religion.  Chartism caused great groups of multi-religious and secular groups to come together during 1838-48, for the "Common Good".

The Nazis invasion of Russia on that infamous day of 22nd June 1941 was all about world domination and ridding Germany of the communist threat yes, but probably more about the hatred felt by the 3.6 million Germans involved towards the Russians.

What am I really saying?  Well I believe, and it is purely my viewpoint, is that mans natural desire to group for battle, for a cause, is far stronger than the one of grouping over religion or politics.  Men in these groups think of honour first, the upholding of the cause, fighting the battle together, then perhaps later justify it with politics and religion.

The Middle East situation is very complex, but as usual what comes first in any talk of battle is fighting the Jew, or Palestinian, or Western power, then actually about the religion that may be behind those groups.  The lack of trust, as existed between Great Britain and Germany before the Great War, is really the spark that ignites conflict, with religion secondary.

In Egypt this will result in first the fight, now well advanced, to remove the regieme untrusted by most Egyptians.  The dust will then settle, and as in Iran after the Shah was deposed, the momentum to fill the vacuum is taken up by the secular or religious factions, whoever they will be.  They may well cause a secondary battle for political power, where the religious element becomes important.  But that does not mean that really the aims of any group is one of gaining power, nothing to do with religion, which in fact has been a smokescreen, an excuse, as in fact it always was in all past historical conflicts.

That grouping of men in the common cause who have caused battle to ensue, and lives to be lost, need an excuse to justify their actions.  "In the name of God or Allah" becomes then the common cry! 

History rolls on, and mans inhumanity to man continues, often finally in the name of religion, which is actually the biggest crime of all!  So as we watch Egypt, and the other nations in those parts playing their power games, remember it really is about mans power over other men, not about the God most of us worship!


 
« Last Edit: 31 January 2011, 13:19:32 by Lizzie_Zoom »
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Banjax

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #79 on: 31 January 2011, 17:40:56 »

interesting theory Liz - genuinely this Egyptian conflict has nothing to do with religion, more to do with a man hanging on to power through intimidation and fear blessed by the west as they in turn justified their support by bleating about how he keeps the muslim extremists out of power. So we in the west hide behind religion (even tho to most of us its of no significance in our lives). I think British, American and other governments of the west should be utterly ashamed - how dare we speak of democracy for all and yet prop up these dictators. I dont think now, having absorbed a lot of interviews and footage that ordinary Egyptians want Mubarak's  evil empire to be replaced by a bunch of medieval nutjobs in funny hats (what is it with the hats, you people?) any more than we would :y 

Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision  :y
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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #80 on: 31 January 2011, 17:45:50 »

Quote
interesting theory Liz - genuinely this Egyptian conflict has nothing to do with religion, more to do with a man hanging on to power through intimidation and fear blessed by the west as they in turn justified their support by bleating about how he keeps the muslim extremists out of power. So we in the west hide behind religion (even tho to most of us its of no significance in our lives). I think British, American and other governments of the west should be utterly ashamed - how dare we speak of democracy for all and yet prop up these dictators. I dont think now, having absorbed a lot of interviews and footage that ordinary Egyptians want Mubarak's  evil empire to be replaced by a bunch of medieval nutjobs in funny hats (what is it with the hats, you people?) any more than we would :y 

Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision  :y
Watch out for the Fez! :D
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #81 on: 31 January 2011, 19:17:38 »

Quote
//...


...//History rolls on, and mans inhumanity to man continues, often finally in the name of religion, which is actually the biggest crime of all!  So as we watch Egypt, and the other nations in those parts playing their power games, remember it really is about mans power over other men, not about the God most of us worship!


 

**Edited merely for the server's sake**


I thought that a fine analysis Lizzie 8-) and for the most part I'm only too pleased to agree with it. :y
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #82 on: 31 January 2011, 19:30:01 »

Quote
Quote
//...


...//History rolls on, and mans inhumanity to man continues, often finally in the name of religion, which is actually the biggest crime of all!  So as we watch Egypt, and the other nations in those parts playing their power games, remember it really is about mans power over other men, not about the God most of us worship!


 

**Edited merely for the server's sake**


I thought that a fine analysis Lizzie 8-) and for the most part I'm only too pleased to agree with it. :y


Cheers ZL! :y :y
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Banjax

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #83 on: 31 January 2011, 20:43:04 »

Quote
Quote
interesting theory Liz - genuinely this Egyptian conflict has nothing to do with religion, more to do with a man hanging on to power through intimidation and fear blessed by the west as they in turn justified their support by bleating about how he keeps the muslim extremists out of power. So we in the west hide behind religion (even tho to most of us its of no significance in our lives). I think British, American and other governments of the west should be utterly ashamed - how dare we speak of democracy for all and yet prop up these dictators. I dont think now, having absorbed a lot of interviews and footage that ordinary Egyptians want Mubarak's  evil empire to be replaced by a bunch of medieval nutjobs in funny hats (what is it with the hats, you people?) any more than we would :y 

Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision  :y
Watch out for the Fez! :D

"Fezzes are cool" The Doctor in "Doctor Who" :y
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #84 on: 31 January 2011, 20:46:21 »

The funniest man I have ever seen wore a fez;  Tommy Cooper! 8-) 8-) 8-) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #85 on: 31 January 2011, 21:23:31 »

Quote
There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.

What I can add though is never forget about the importance of "brotherhood" in both secular and deeply religious societies. That typical 'mans' habit of grouping or bonding together in a common shared sense of belonging.  It has driven conflict for centuries, and I see no evidence of it changing any time soon.

When this happens blood brotherhood seems to overtake religion.  Exceptions are of course scattered throughout history, with say the Christian Crusades and Elizabethan stand against Philip of Spain, in particular during the 1580s, culminating in the Spanish Armada of 1588, coming to mind.

But when Britain declared war on Germany in the August of 1914 their was open jubilation on the streets, with a chance to fight the growing threat to the Empire of the Hun.  No talk of religion as both were Chritian countries, and all rememberance of the Prussian army saving Wellington's bacon at Waterloo was forgotten.  I fear to say that even now many men would come together over any talk of fighting the French again (heaven forbid!!).  On that point even the welling patrisism, nationalism, and desire for world power for a new Empire took the Royal Navy fleet into battle against the French and Spanish fleet at Trafalgar on the 21st October 1805.  Once again no talk of religion.  Chartism caused great groups of multi-religious and secular groups to come together during 1838-48, for the "Common Good".

The Nazis invasion of Russia on that infamous day of 22nd June 1941 was all about world domination and ridding Germany of the communist threat yes, but probably more about the hatred felt by the 3.6 million Germans involved towards the Russians.

What am I really saying?  Well I believe, and it is purely my viewpoint, is that mans natural desire to group for battle, for a cause, is far stronger than the one of grouping over religion or politics.  Men in these groups think of honour first, the upholding of the cause, fighting the battle together, then perhaps later justify it with politics and religion.

The Middle East situation is very complex, but as usual what comes first in any talk of battle is fighting the Jew, or Palestinian, or Western power, then actually about the religion that may be behind those groups.  The lack of trust, as existed between Great Britain and Germany before the Great War, is really the spark that ignites conflict, with religion secondary.

In Egypt this will result in first the fight, now well advanced, to remove the regieme untrusted by most Egyptians.  The dust will then settle, and as in Iran after the Shah was deposed, the momentum to fill the vacuum is taken up by the secular or religious factions, whoever they will be.  They may well cause a secondary battle for political power, where the religious element becomes important.  But that does not mean that really the aims of any group is one of gaining power, nothing to do with religion, which in fact has been a smokescreen, an excuse, as in fact it always was in all past historical conflicts.

That grouping of men in the common cause who have caused battle to ensue, and lives to be lost, need an excuse to justify their actions.  "In the name of God or Allah" becomes then the common cry! 

History rolls on, and mans inhumanity to man continues, often finally in the name of religion, which is actually the biggest crime of all!  So as we watch Egypt, and the other nations in those parts playing their power games, remember it really is about mans power over other men, not about the God most of us worship!


 

good summary of truth Lizzie..  whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and  in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it  will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders..  And more than that, I dont think  this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism..  >:(
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Banjax

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #86 on: 01 February 2011, 11:52:44 »

Quote
Quote
There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.


good summary of truth Lizzie..  whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and  in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it  will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders..  And more than that, I dont think  this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism..  >:(


this may seem like a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but the impression i get (from afar and admittedly filtered through the telly news) is that muslim extremists are generally about as welcome to Egyptians as a fart in a spacesuit? or are they just clever at disguising their popular support? :o
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #87 on: 01 February 2011, 12:02:33 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.


good summary of truth Lizzie..  whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and  in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it  will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders..  And more than that, I dont think  this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism..  >:(


this may seem like a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but the impression i get (from afar and admittedly filtered through the telly news) is that muslim extremists are generally about as welcome to Egyptians as a fart in a spacesuit? or are they just clever at disguising their popular support? :o

You may not be far off where Egypt is concerned BJ - The Muslim Brotherhood (to name but one, and if indeed they can be labelled as extremists) doesn't seem to have much popular support there.

At the moment the general movement for change - as being driven by the person in the street - seems to be centred on getting the Mubarak regime out, what follows in terms of a conventional political structure to take over the administration of the country is a question that presently seems to be rather more difficult to answer.
« Last Edit: 01 February 2011, 12:05:17 by Zulu77 »
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Banjax

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #88 on: 01 February 2011, 12:39:40 »

see the king of Jordan has blinked  :y

allegedly sacking his government - presumably to head off another popular uprising, unfortunately the military there i think are fairly solidly behind the king :o

the tyrants are running scared tho.

« Last Edit: 01 February 2011, 12:41:18 by bannjaxx »
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: First Tunisia, now Egypt. Where next?
« Reply #89 on: 01 February 2011, 13:08:45 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.


good summary of truth Lizzie..  whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and  in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it  will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders..  And more than that, I dont think  this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism..  >:(


this may seem like a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but the impression i get (from afar and admittedly filtered through the telly news) is that muslim extremists are generally about as welcome to Egyptians as a fart in a spacesuit? or are they just clever at disguising their popular support? :o

You may not be far off where Egypt is concerned BJ - The Muslim Brotherhood (to name but one, and if indeed they can be labelled as extremists) doesn't seem to have much popular support there.

At the moment the general movement for change - as being driven by the person in the street - seems to be centred on getting the Mubarak regime out, what follows in terms of a conventional political structure to take over the administration of the country is a question that presently seems to be rather more difficult to answer.

 I'm afraid, for me, its not..  any revolution which does not have an industrial culture behind, sooner or later  will follow the usual river bed (you know what I mean)..  and there is no exception  >:(
« Last Edit: 01 February 2011, 13:10:35 by cem_devecioglu »
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