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[Dishevelled Den]

incredible, vivid eye-witness account from the ever excellent Robert Fisk in todays paper - well worth a read:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-blood-and-fear-in-cairos-streets-as-mubaraks-men-crack-down-on-protests-2202657.html

Yes, a nicely written piece.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

incredible, vivid eye-witness account from the ever excellent Robert Fisk in todays paper - well worth a read:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-blood-and-fear-in-cairos-streets-as-mubaraks-men-crack-down-on-protests-2202657.html

Yes, a nicely written piece.

I agree!

However I am a bit concerned that our media are painting a picture of the Presidents "hired help" being the only ones who support him and are fighting the masses who do not.

I feel sure that Mubarak will have far more supporters than that as portrayed by our media, but certainly they seem to be in a minority.

[Nickbat]

its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? 

Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision 

I note that the pro-Mubarak and anti-government protesters are having a major bundle.

Does your first comment still stand, BJ? 

absolutely, the sooner he leaves and Egypt can install democracy the better, rent-a-mobs and plain clothes police causing trouble just show how increasingly ruthlesss and desperate Mubarak is to maintain his power. 

Ha!  ha!

So your first comment that it's "their country, their choice" only holds true for you if Mubarak leaves.

On the one hand you say that a country should be free to decide it's own fate, yet, on the other, you feel the need to tell them what to do.

Just sayin'. 

most people in Egypt want Mubarak to leave - I don't see the point you're making  :-?

The point I am making is that you are happy to have the people of Egypt make their own choice, but then, in the next breath, say what the outcome should be. I'm have no particular feelings about Mubarak, but I think your statement that "most people want him to leave" is mere conjecture - not based on any facts. I read a quote yesterday from an Egyptian who said that Mubarak brought stability and that's the one thing the country needs before it can tackle other issues. I suspect, as Lizzie has said, that Mubarak actually has quite substantial support.

[Dishevelled Den]

incredible, vivid eye-witness account from the ever excellent Robert Fisk in todays paper - well worth a read:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-blood-and-fear-in-cairos-streets-as-mubaraks-men-crack-down-on-protests-2202657.html

Yes, a nicely written piece.

I agree!

However I am a bit concerned that our media are painting a picture of the Presidents "hired help" being the only ones who support him and are fighting the masses who do not.

I feel sure that Mubarak will have far more supporters than that as portrayed by our media, but certainly they seem to be in a minority.

Yes I think that's a fair comment Lizzie as - in most nations within that region - the truth (should there ever be such a commodity) is concealed behind many veils.

[Banjax]

its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? 

Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision 

I note that the pro-Mubarak and anti-government protesters are having a major bundle.

Does your first comment still stand, BJ? 

absolutely, the sooner he leaves and Egypt can install democracy the better, rent-a-mobs and plain clothes police causing trouble just show how increasingly ruthlesss and desperate Mubarak is to maintain his power. 

Ha!  ha!

So your first comment that it's "their country, their choice" only holds true for you if Mubarak leaves.

On the one hand you say that a country should be free to decide it's own fate, yet, on the other, you feel the need to tell them what to do.

Just sayin'. 

most people in Egypt want Mubarak to leave - I don't see the point you're making  :-?

The point I am making is that you are happy to have the people of Egypt make their own choice, but then, in the next breath, say what the outcome should be. I'm have no particular feelings about Mubarak, but I think your statement that "most people want him to leave" is mere conjecture - not based on any facts. I read a quote yesterday from an Egyptian who said that Mubarak brought stability and that's the one thing the country needs before it can tackle other issues. I suspect, as Lizzie has said, that Mubarak actually has quite substantial support.

wow - even the comical Fox News are reporting that Mubarak has enlisted "supporters" to do his bidding, as well as the loyal police force who have "disappeared" from the streets....to return as pro El Presidente "civilians". Mubarak may have some support but if you're seriously suggesting that he has a majority then I think thats well wide of the truth in all honesty Nickbat. 

[cem_devecioglu]

as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten

as I said.. this the beginning only..

[Banjax]

as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten

as I said.. this the beginning only..

yep - it'll be a bloodbath sadly, I wonder what the other 20 or so dictators in the Arab world are thinking? Some of them are being smart enough to act quickly Yemen, Jordan (whether announcing you wont stand again or sacking your govt respectively is enough -who knows?)- but who survives and who falls in the Middle East is going to have massive implications - especially where pro-Israeli regimes are toppled 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten

as I said.. this the beginning only..

Maybe a very silly question!  But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/

[cem_devecioglu]

as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten

as I said.. this the beginning only..

Maybe a very silly question!  But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/

good question Lizzie.. but we are not accepted as real muslims between them (not all of them of course) as they believe we are with big brother  :-/ nearly all Turkish families , workers leave Egypt..



edit: and there are more than 60 textile factories that Turkish bussinessman have there and I dont count the numerious shops there which are destroyed..

[Lizzie_Zoom]

as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten

as I said.. this the beginning only..

Maybe a very silly question!  But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/

good question Lizzie.. but we are not accepted as real muslims between them (not all of them of course) as they believe we are with big brother  :-/ nearly all Turkish families , workers leave Egypt..



edit: and there are more than 60 textile factories that Turkish bussinessman have there and I dont count the numerious shops there which are destroyed..

Thanks Cem    That is very interesting.  I wonder what would happen then if Turkey joins the white Christian brotherhood of Europe    Would Turkey be completely shunned by other Islamic states?  That would be very contary to what I would like to see, and what Europe seeks!

[Nickbat]

Just had good chat with my Egyptian neighbour. He believes Mubarak should leave office and also believes that Eqyptians will never allow the establishment of am Iran-like regime. I have a lot of time for this chap and I hope his wish comes true and that he is right about the replacement government.

Banjax, I was merely pointing out that Mubarak does have some support, especially amongst the older generations. I accept that there is probably a majority of Egyptians who want Mubarak out, but neither I nor you can say that as a fact, per se and that is what I was picking you up on. It is, of course, highly likely to be the case.   

[Banjax]

Just had good chat with my Egyptian neighbour. He believes Mubarak should leave office and also believes that Eqyptians will never allow the establishment of am Iran-like regime. I have a lot of time for this chap and I hope his wish comes true and that he is right about the replacement government.

Banjax, I was merely pointing out that Mubarak does have some support, especially amongst the older generations. I accept that there is probably a majority of Egyptians who want Mubarak out, but neither I nor you can say that as a fact, per se and that is what I was picking you up on. It is, of course, highly likely to be the case.   

fair point - he will have some support, i just cant believe that many people would wish to live under a dictator voluntarily - although of course there will be a section of society (police, upper echelons of business and politics, etc) for whom live was good under Mubarak - i do think he should listen to what the people of Egypt want tho and to prolong his regime will be disastrous 

[cem_devecioglu]

as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten

as I said.. this the beginning only..

Maybe a very silly question!  But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/

good question Lizzie.. but we are not accepted as real muslims between them (not all of them of course) as they believe we are with big brother  :-/ nearly all Turkish families , workers leave Egypt..



edit: and there are more than 60 textile factories that Turkish bussinessman have there and I dont count the numerious shops there which are destroyed..

Thanks Cem    That is very interesting.  I wonder what would happen then if Turkey joins the white Christian brotherhood of Europe    Would Turkey be completely shunned by other Islamic states?  That would be very contary to what I would like to see, and what Europe seeks!

so you admit its Christian brotherhood

this is what our govts claim from the beginning.. although I dont care is it or not, I'm sure the leading party cares too much about it..

and to answer your question, honestly, look in history, those islamic countries once were on Ottoman lands, and they never like us anyway.. but they dont like anything other than money

and what europe seeks: I'm sure they dont want to see us between them.. neither this century nor the next one

[Lizzie_Zoom]

as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten

as I said.. this the beginning only..

Maybe a very silly question!  But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/

good question Lizzie.. but we are not accepted as real muslims between them (not all of them of course) as they believe we are with big brother  :-/ nearly all Turkish families , workers leave Egypt..



edit: and there are more than 60 textile factories that Turkish bussinessman have there and I dont count the numerious shops there which are destroyed..

Thanks Cem    That is very interesting.  I wonder what would happen then if Turkey joins the white Christian brotherhood of Europe    Would Turkey be completely shunned by other Islamic states?  That would be very contary to what I would like to see, and what Europe seeks!

so you admit its Christian brotherhood

this is what our govts claim from the beginning.. although I dont care is it or not, I'm sure the leading party cares too much about it..

and to answer your question, honestly, look in history, those islamic countries once were on Ottoman lands, and they never like us anyway.. but they dont like anything other than money

and what europe seeks: I'm sure they dont want to see us between them.. neither this century nor the next one

Oh yes Cem, that fact cannot be denied

But that is why I would really welcome Turkey joining as it would break down that situation which has existed for near 1,000 years.  That is one reason why England and France in particular became involved in the Crusades when the "evil" Saracens took control of Jerusalem, "poor helpless Christian Jerusalem!!"

That is what we need to change so it is a brotherhood of Europe encompassing all religions 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

[cem_devecioglu]

as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten

as I said.. this the beginning only..

Maybe a very silly question!  But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/

good question Lizzie.. but we are not accepted as real muslims between them (not all of them of course) as they believe we are with big brother  :-/ nearly all Turkish families , workers leave Egypt..



edit: and there are more than 60 textile factories that Turkish bussinessman have there and I dont count the numerious shops there which are destroyed..

Thanks Cem    That is very interesting.  I wonder what would happen then if Turkey joins the white Christian brotherhood of Europe    Would Turkey be completely shunned by other Islamic states?  That would be very contary to what I would like to see, and what Europe seeks!

so you admit its Christian brotherhood

this is what our govts claim from the beginning.. although I dont care is it or not, I'm sure the leading party cares too much about it..

and to answer your question, honestly, look in history, those islamic countries once were on Ottoman lands, and they never like us anyway.. but they dont like anything other than money

and what europe seeks: I'm sure they dont want to see us between them.. neither this century nor the next one

Oh yes Cem, that fact cannot be denied

But that is why I would really welcome Turkey joining as it would break down that situation which has existed for near 1,000 years.  That is one reason why England and France in particular became involved in the Crusades when the "evil" Saracens took control of Jerusalem, "poor helpless Christian Jerusalem!!"

That is what we need to change so it is a brotherhood of Europe encompassing all religions 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

Nice to hear those words from you Lizzie

here , there are some factors about the situation that must be noted.. Turkey is a big country and have a high population (80 million nearly) .. and our population increase rate is nearly the double of avg european country..if we are added to EU, the power equations and EU parliament will change .. and many other things..neither the european heads and nor some Turkish heads(including me) are not ready for that imo..apart from the burocratic problems and any other things , we have a bigger problem here that we have to solve between us(my citizens)..(I wont go in details for the time being but you can guess)