Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: cem_devecioglu on 31 May 2013, 11:21:11
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is just a friggin damn lie.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
its been torn apart by tear gas, pressurized water, arrests and fists by sheep sh*ggin b-stards >:( >:( >:(
thou shall burn in hell for eternity >:( >:( >:(
here you go :'(
http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/taksimde-bu-sabah/28157/1/Haber (http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/taksimde-bu-sabah/28157/1/Haber)
govt want to cut trees, destroy a park (İstanbul) and want to build a shopping center in that location and dont want this area to be used by protesters any more..
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Who owns the park?
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Who owns the park?
its for the public.. but there is always protests again the govt and they want to finish this forever..
http://www.milliyet.tv/video-izle/Tazyikli-su-sikilan-gosterici-yere-yigildi--243irbWy0pmg.html (http://www.milliyet.tv/video-izle/Tazyikli-su-sikilan-gosterici-yere-yigildi--243irbWy0pmg.html)
several videos are one after another please watch it.. :y
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is just a friggin damn lie.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
its been torn apart by tear gas, pressurized water, arrests and fists by sheep sh*ggin b-stards >:( >:( >:(
thou shall burn in hell for eternity >:( >:( >:(
here you go :'(
http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/taksimde-bu-sabah/28157/1/Haber (http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/taksimde-bu-sabah/28157/1/Haber)
govt want to cut trees, destroy a park (İstanbul) and want to build a shopping center in that location and dont want this area to be used by protesters any more..
Didn't know the Welsh ran Turkey Cem??!! :-\ :o ;D
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is just a friggin damn lie.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
its been torn apart by tear gas, pressurized water, arrests and fists by sheep sh*ggin b-stards >:( >:( >:(
thou shall burn in hell for eternity >:( >:( >:(
here you go :'(
http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/taksimde-bu-sabah/28157/1/Haber (http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/taksimde-bu-sabah/28157/1/Haber)
govt want to cut trees, destroy a park (İstanbul) and want to build a shopping center in that location and dont want this area to be used by protesters any more..
Didn't know the Welsh ran Turkey Cem??!! :-\ :o ;D
I can happily change them with Welsh.. and I'll happily pay extra for you to accept them ;D ;D ;D
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Why not cem? We have become a 'dumping ground' for many another countries unwanted, don't suppose a few more will hurt? Being paid to take them, now that is a novel idea, its usually us forking out.. :y
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Why not cem? We have become a 'dumping ground' for many another countries unwanted, don't suppose a few more will hurt? Being paid to take them, now that is a novel idea, its usually us forking out.. :y
I must be too far when you take the package ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
because without doubt you will change your idea.. their first job will be to forbid alcoholic drinks ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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protest become bigger and spread to other cities!
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Sorry Cem I didn't get very far as this caught my eye instead!! :)
http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/hz-peinde-kouyor/28161/1/Spor
:-* :-* :-*
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Sorry Cem I didn't get very far as this caught my eye instead!! :)
http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/hz-peinde-kouyor/28161/1/Spor (http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/hz-peinde-kouyor/28161/1/Spor)
:-* :-* :-*
:) ;D :y
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Who owns the park?
its for the public.. but there is always protests again the govt and they want to finish this forever..
http://www.milliyet.tv/video-izle/Tazyikli-su-sikilan-gosterici-yere-yigildi--243irbWy0pmg.html (http://www.milliyet.tv/video-izle/Tazyikli-su-sikilan-gosterici-yere-yigildi--243irbWy0pmg.html)
several videos are one after another please watch it.. :y
Linky no worky :(
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events go beyond any explanation.. >:(
tomorrow will share some other links.. :y
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the protests and anger turned against the govt which was tried to be kept under the carpet by media.. but its spread over several cities and police already finished gas stocks :D ;D
last night facebook and twitter servers were very busy.. govt cut most communication lines for mobiles ??? so most communication done via internet by area wifis :(
only 2 local tv channels and some foreign channels were broadcasting the events
"friend" media were full of rubbish and there no sign of events :D
http://haber.gazetevatan.com/gece-boyu-suren-gezi-yuruyusu/542824/1/gundem (http://haber.gazetevatan.com/gece-boyu-suren-gezi-yuruyusu/542824/1/gundem)
http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/dunya-gezi-parki-olaylarini/dunya/detay/1717124/default.htm (http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/dunya-gezi-parki-olaylarini/dunya/detay/1717124/default.htm)
and the police were really tired ;D
http://haber.gazetevatan.com/polisler-yollara-yatip-uyudu/542837/1/gundem (http://haber.gazetevatan.com/polisler-yollara-yatip-uyudu/542837/1/gundem)
because they were on head breaking duty
http://haber.gazetevatan.com/nasuh-mahruki-yaralandi/542817/1/gundem (http://haber.gazetevatan.com/nasuh-mahruki-yaralandi/542817/1/gundem)
some brief here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/31/istanbul-protesters-violent-clashes-police (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/31/istanbul-protesters-violent-clashes-police)
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Its all over our news, Cem, so if you want to know what's happening in your country, watch the BBC world service. ;D
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is just a friggin damn lie.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
What? You mean you only just worked this out? ???
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is just a friggin damn lie.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
What? You mean you only just worked this out? ???
::)
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It's all over the news here Cem, seems to be a disgrace the PM saying that the developement will go ahead no matter what.... Democracy my arse :( :( :(
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It's all over the news here Cem, seems to be a disgrace the PM saying that the developement will go ahead no matter what.... Democracy my arse :( :( :(
PM.. he is the center and the cause of problem.. who commands the police to be violent.. thinks he is the emperor.. >:(
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The people have no say anymore , its the same here :(
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The people have no say anymore , its the same here :(
I dont think UK police can be this much violent, may be very few exceptions.. :-\ but ours shoot those tear gas capsules aiming peoples head.. and pressurized water on face directly >:( because they are specially selected with same political views as govt.. and they treat people like enemies..
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some interesting moments
http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/taksimde-bu-sabah/28169/2/Haber
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Sorry Cem I didn't get very far as this caught my eye instead!! :)
http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/hz-peinde-kouyor/28161/1/Spor
:-* :-* :-*
You have got me on this one with democracy. I'm spoilt for choice on which of these voluptuous women to vote for. :y ;) ;) ;)
All politicians and governments when they go too far and don't take the majority of the population with them, especially if it involves repressive moves, will at some point see and feel the wrath of the majority where they have had enough. At some point this will happen in the Euro countries where the youth will have nothing to lose with their 50%+ and rising unemployment and no prospects. ??? The 25%+ unemployment and no prospects for the over 25s is no barrel of laughs either.
Are they rioting in Turkey due to your authoritarian government or is there more to it?
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Sorry Cem I didn't get very far as this caught my eye instead!! :)
http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/hz-peinde-kouyor/28161/1/Spor (http://fotogaleri.gazetevatan.com/hz-peinde-kouyor/28161/1/Spor)
:-* :-* :-*
You have got me on this one with democracy. I'm spoilt for choice on which of these voluptuous women to vote for. :y ;) ;) ;)
All politicians and governments when they go too far and don't take the majority of the population with them, especially if it involves repressive moves, will at some point see and feel the wrath of the majority where they have had enough. At some point this will happen in the Euro countries where the youth will have nothing to lose with their 50%+ and rising unemployment and no prospects. ??? The 25%+ unemployment and no prospects for the over 25s is no barrel of laughs either.
Are they rioting in Turkey due to your authoritarian government or is there more to it?
religious authoritarian.. and there are more things which adds up..
one interesting contradictory moment today ;
while prime minster was taking a reward from world health organization for implementing non smoking areas :D at the same moment the whole city was under tear gas smoke and some areas were in fire ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I think this move prooves the intention.. :o one protestor is killed under the vehicle.. thats a murder >:( >:(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h_0AoL72Evw
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It said in an article on the BBC that Erdogan will try to change the Turkish constitution to allow him to stand again for election. I assume that the constitution allows for 2 terms only for 5 or 6 years? ??? :-\
I find this sort of thing totally depressing and is the behaviour of a power hungry African dictator. ::) There is more to these protests than a park... :(
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It said in an article on the BBC that Erdogan will try to change the Turkish constitution to allow him to stand again for election. I assume that the constitution allows for 2 terms only for 5 or 6 years? ??? :-\
I find this sort of thing totally depressing and is the behaviour of a power hungry African dictator. ::) There is more to these protests than a park... :(
definitely.. they are are trying to change the constitution according to their desires.. :(
however, things may change!
definitely worth watching ;D ;D look how my citizens fight against police and take their shields ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iKVj7rgbTQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iKVj7rgbTQ)
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I have been watching this thread with great interest Cem, without getting involved in another serious political debate which seems to be out of fashion, for very good reasons, here on the OOF.
All I would do then Cem is express my sincere sadness for what is happening in your great country. Although I will confess to not knowing much at all about the politics in Turkey, despite covering the topic at Uni, and knowing your country is 99% Muslim controlled, but trying to be a secular state, I know what is happening is very wrong.
Turkey is though going through a tremendous change, like so much of the Middle East, I believe, but is still entrenched in the beliefs of 500 years ago (????) again like so much of the Middle East! It is going through changes that in fact Europe, and Great Britain, went through many years ago. The Otterman Empire of course pre-ceded the British Empire, seeing off the last of the Roman Empire in 1453, and you would have thought would progressed in the art of democracy far earlier than many other countries, including Britain. But alas, democracy does not seem to have completely 'cooked' in the oven yet and is some way off. That is very sad for the Turkish people, and the world at large. The dream I have of Turkey being the 'bridge' for the East to link West, with the great advantages that would mean, seems a long way off.
In general though, especially to my fellow Brits, I would say that "we" in Great Britain, and the people of western Europe, enjoy a level of democracy never before witnessed in World history. We, the common people, actually have more say in our affairs than ever before. Our opinions do count, and influence our politicians as best as we can in a Representative Democracy. To compare Turkish democracy as being at the British level, or visa versa, is frankly a nonsense.
I will finally quote, once more, the great man and the subject of democracy; Winston Churchill. He gave that wonderful speech:
“No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time”
Winston Churchill 11th November 1947
It is still all very true! :y :y :y :y
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Lizzie, thanks for your interest.. :y
cant predict the reaction of west on Turkeys current situation, however, if west govts especially USA, didnt support current govt both financially and politically (which I hardly can grasp the truth) , those people would never become a govt here in the first place.. :(
and as for democracy.. there is 2 different Turkey actually.. one is well educated with west standards and living by west standards and do believe in democracy which you can compare to Britain democracy , and the other with no standards with an actual east way of thinking.. Unfortunately west supported this east head before :-X
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Lizzie, thanks for your interest.. :y
cant predict the reaction of west on Turkeys current situation, however, if west govts especially USA, didnt support current govt both financially and politically (which I hardly can grasp the truth) , those people would never become a govt here in the first place.. :(
and as for democracy.. there is 2 different Turkey actually.. one is well educated with west standards and living by west standards and do believe in democracy which you can compare to Britain democracy , and the other with no standards with an actual east way of thinking.. Unfortunately west supported this east head before :-X
Thanks Cem for that information! :y :y
As for the USA, under President Obama, it is becoming increasingly isolationist and will involve itself far less in other people's wars / arguments (as per their Constitution) and will happily accept less influence "on the ground", instead using diplomacy to achieve their political aims.
Some will say this is a good thing, others not, but whatever it is their decision and the rest of the world must now get on and resolve their issues, as so many of the western countries did in the past, on their own. ;) ;)
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Lizzie, thanks for your interest.. :y
cant predict the reaction of west on Turkeys current situation, however, if west govts especially USA, didnt support current govt both financially and politically (which I hardly can grasp the truth) , those people would never become a govt here in the first place.. :(
and as for democracy.. there is 2 different Turkey actually.. one is well educated with west standards and living by west standards and do believe in democracy which you can compare to Britain democracy , and the other with no standards with an actual east way of thinking.. Unfortunately west supported this east head before :-X
Thanks Cem for that information! :y :y
As for the USA, under President Obama, it is becoming increasingly isolationist and will involve itself far less in other people's wars / arguments (as per their Constitution) and will happily accept less influence "on the ground", instead using diplomacy to achieve their political aims.
Some will say this is a good thing, others not, but whatever it is their decision and the rest of the world must now get on and resolve their issues, as so many of the western countries did in the past, on their own. ;) ;)
we could, if left on our own ;D ;)
and I think, we demonstrated a very good example in history despite all west armies ;)
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Lizzie, thanks for your interest.. :y
cant predict the reaction of west on Turkeys current situation, however, if west govts especially USA, didnt support current govt both financially and politically (which I hardly can grasp the truth) , those people would never become a govt here in the first place.. :(
and as for democracy.. there is 2 different Turkey actually.. one is well educated with west standards and living by west standards and do believe in democracy which you can compare to Britain democracy , and the other with no standards with an actual east way of thinking.. Unfortunately west supported this east head before :-X
Thanks Cem for that information! :y :y
As for the USA, under President Obama, it is becoming increasingly isolationist and will involve itself far less in other people's wars / arguments (as per their Constitution) and will happily accept less influence "on the ground", instead using diplomacy to achieve their political aims.
Some will say this is a good thing, others not, but whatever it is their decision and the rest of the world must now get on and resolve their issues, as so many of the western countries did in the past, on their own. ;) ;)
we could, if left on our own ;D ;)
and I think, we demonstrated a very good example in history despite all west armies ;)
Yes to both Cem :y :y :y :y
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Lizzie, thanks for your interest.. :y
cant predict the reaction of west on Turkeys current situation, however, if west govts especially USA, didnt support current govt both financially and politically (which I hardly can grasp the truth) , those people would never become a govt here in the first place.. :(
and as for democracy.. there is 2 different Turkey actually.. one is well educated with west standards and living by west standards and do believe in democracy which you can compare to Britain democracy , and the other with no standards with an actual east way of thinking.. Unfortunately west supported this east head before :-X
Thanks Cem for that information! :y :y
As for the USA, under President Obama, it is becoming increasingly isolationist and will involve itself far less in other people's wars / arguments (as per their Constitution) and will happily accept less influence "on the ground", instead using diplomacy to achieve their political aims.
Some will say this is a good thing, others not, but whatever it is their decision and the rest of the world must now get on and resolve their issues, as so many of the western countries did in the past, on their own. ;) ;)
we could, if left on our own ;D ;)
and I think, we demonstrated a very good example in history despite all west armies ;)
Yes to both Cem :y :y :y :y
thanks Lizzie :) :) :y :y :y :y
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Cem, i'll tell you what, if you all chip if with the airfare, we will send you our Mr T Blair and Mr G Brown across to you so they can run your country for you ;)
You can have them for 15 years ;)
Then you will understand what real democracy is .................. :-X :-X
In fact, because we love you all so much you can keep them ;D ;D ;D
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Cem, i'll tell you what, if you all chip if with the airfare, we will send you our Mr T Blair and Mr G Brown across to you so they can run your country for you ;)
You can have them for 15 years ;)
Then you will understand what real democracy is .................. :-X :-X
In fact, because we love you all so much you can keep them ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Cem, i'll tell you what, if you all chip if with the airfare, we will send you our Mr T Blair and Mr G Brown across to you so they can run your country for you ;)
You can have them for 15 years ;)
Then you will understand what real democracy is .................. :-X :-X
In fact, because we love you all so much you can keep them ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
please keep in mind there always worse than the worse! ;D :y
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Lizzie, thanks for your interest.. :y
cant predict the reaction of west on Turkeys current situation, however, if west govts especially USA, didnt support current govt both financially and politically (which I hardly can grasp the truth) , those people would never become a govt here in the first place.. :(
and as for democracy.. there is 2 different Turkey actually.. one is well educated with west standards and living by west standards and do believe in democracy which you can compare to Britain democracy , and the other with no standards with an actual east way of thinking.. Unfortunately west supported this east head before :-X
This east / west divide is interesting as it is exactly the same in the country north of you Ukraine. The western side is pro-EU and western style democracy and the eastern side pro-Russian and a much more authoritarian form of democracy. The fact that both countries have this split suggests geography has a strong say in their style of politics and government,where they are both a gateway and a division between east and west, that both countries reflect this division with an east-west political divide looking in their respective directions.
At the moment Ukraine has an Eastern based president and government and this is reflected in the way it is governed.
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Lizzie, thanks for your interest.. :y
cant predict the reaction of west on Turkeys current situation, however, if west govts especially USA, didnt support current govt both financially and politically (which I hardly can grasp the truth) , those people would never become a govt here in the first place.. :(
and as for democracy.. there is 2 different Turkey actually.. one is well educated with west standards and living by west standards and do believe in democracy which you can compare to Britain democracy , and the other with no standards with an actual east way of thinking.. Unfortunately west supported this east head before :-X
This east / west divide is interesting as it is exactly the same in the country north of you Ukraine. The western side is pro-EU and western style democracy and the eastern side pro-Russian and a much more authoritarian form of democracy. The fact that both countries have this split suggests geography has a strong say in their style of politics and government,where they are both a gateway and a division between east and west, that both countries reflect this division with an east-west political divide looking in their respective directions.
At the moment Ukraine has an Eastern based president and government and this is reflected in the way it is governed.
Good observation Rods.. :y
Turkey however is a bit different.. the west east seperation is more like west or iran model which is very different than a Russian model..
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Lizzie, thanks for your interest.. :y
cant predict the reaction of west on Turkeys current situation, however, if west govts especially USA, didnt support current govt both financially and politically (which I hardly can grasp the truth) , those people would never become a govt here in the first place.. :(
and as for democracy.. there is 2 different Turkey actually.. one is well educated with west standards and living by west standards and do believe in democracy which you can compare to Britain democracy , and the other with no standards with an actual east way of thinking.. Unfortunately west supported this east head before :-X
This east / west divide is interesting as it is exactly the same in the country north of you Ukraine. The western side is pro-EU and western style democracy and the eastern side pro-Russian and a much more authoritarian form of democracy. The fact that both countries have this split suggests geography has a strong say in their style of politics and government,where they are both a gateway and a division between east and west, that both countries reflect this division with an east-west political divide looking in their respective directions.
At the moment Ukraine has an Eastern based president and government and this is reflected in the way it is governed.
Good observation Rods.. :y
Turkey however is a bit different.. the west east seperation is more like west or iran model which is very different than a Russian model..
Yes I agree also with Rods2 and his excellent observation. :y :y :y
From a personal view and observation, it was very noticeable how the young Slovakian, Romanian, and Ukrainian students at university, who were well versed in their respective countries political history, were so pro-western politics and our way of life. They saw that as their future, with a determination to do something about their countries politics to advance true democracy. They said, bar none, that their parents often recalled with fondness the USSR, but they and the young generally now rejected that way of life, seeking a western style of living.
They said Communism still existed, but was generally only supported by some of the elderly. :)
Change will happen of course in Eastern Europe, but it will take a lot more time. In Turkey currently that change is again going through a very painful period as Great Britain did in the 18th and 20th centuries:y :y
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Lizzie, thanks for your interest.. :y
cant predict the reaction of west on Turkeys current situation, however, if west govts especially USA, didnt support current govt both financially and politically (which I hardly can grasp the truth) , those people would never become a govt here in the first place.. :(
and as for democracy.. there is 2 different Turkey actually.. one is well educated with west standards and living by west standards and do believe in democracy which you can compare to Britain democracy , and the other with no standards with an actual east way of thinking.. Unfortunately west supported this east head before :-X
This east / west divide is interesting as it is exactly the same in the country north of you Ukraine. The western side is pro-EU and western style democracy and the eastern side pro-Russian and a much more authoritarian form of democracy. The fact that both countries have this split suggests geography has a strong say in their style of politics and government,where they are both a gateway and a division between east and west, that both countries reflect this division with an east-west political divide looking in their respective directions.
At the moment Ukraine has an Eastern based president and government and this is reflected in the way it is governed.
Good observation Rods.. :y
Turkey however is a bit different.. the west east seperation is more like west or iran model which is very different than a Russian model..
Yes I agree also with Rods2 and his excellent observation. :y :y :y
From a personal view and observation, it was very noticeable how the young Slovakian, Romanian, and Ukrainian students at university, who were well versed in their respective countries political history, were so pro-western politics and our way of life. They saw that as their future, with a determination to do something about their countries politics to advance true democracy. They said, bar none, that their parents often recalled with fondness the USSR, but they and the young generally now rejected that way of life, seeking a western style of living.
They said Communism still existed, but was generally only supported by some of the elderly. :)
Change will happen of course in Eastern Europe, but it will take a lot more time. In Turkey currently that change is again going through a very painful period as Great Britain did in the 18th and 20th centuries:y :y
Lizzie ::) you are provokiing me to start again ;D
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Lizzie, thanks for your interest.. :y
cant predict the reaction of west on Turkeys current situation, however, if west govts especially USA, didnt support current govt both financially and politically (which I hardly can grasp the truth) , those people would never become a govt here in the first place.. :(
and as for democracy.. there is 2 different Turkey actually.. one is well educated with west standards and living by west standards and do believe in democracy which you can compare to Britain democracy , and the other with no standards with an actual east way of thinking.. Unfortunately west supported this east head before :-X
This east / west divide is interesting as it is exactly the same in the country north of you Ukraine. The western side is pro-EU and western style democracy and the eastern side pro-Russian and a much more authoritarian form of democracy. The fact that both countries have this split suggests geography has a strong say in their style of politics and government,where they are both a gateway and a division between east and west, that both countries reflect this division with an east-west political divide looking in their respective directions.
At the moment Ukraine has an Eastern based president and government and this is reflected in the way it is governed.
Good observation Rods.. :y
Turkey however is a bit different.. the west east seperation is more like west or iran model which is very different than a Russian model..
Yes I agree also with Rods2 and his excellent observation. :y :y :y
From a personal view and observation, it was very noticeable how the young Slovakian, Romanian, and Ukrainian students at university, who were well versed in their respective countries political history, were so pro-western politics and our way of life. They saw that as their future, with a determination to do something about their countries politics to advance true democracy. They said, bar none, that their parents often recalled with fondness the USSR, but they and the young generally now rejected that way of life, seeking a western style of living.
They said Communism still existed, but was generally only supported by some of the elderly. :)
Change will happen of course in Eastern Europe, but it will take a lot more time. In Turkey currently that change is again going through a very painful period as Great Britain did in the 18th and 20th centuries:y :y
Lizzie ::) you are provokiing me to start again ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
By the way Cem, I meant to say the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries in my highlighted statement! ::) ::) ::) ;)
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There has just been a lengthy item on our BBC news about the latest situation in Turkey Cem.
Tell me, do the red flags just represent socialist groups, or are they the communists?
Interesting to hear your President calling the protesters "pillagers". Just let him know from me they are actually freedom fighters fighting for the peoples rights as our ancestors did. So often seen as "terrorists" at the time, but in fact only common people demanding through direct action a revision of politics to recognise democratic justice. :D :D :y
100 years ago the British Suffragettes took action to gain the vote for women and a Emily Davison brought down the Kings horse at Epsom whilst trying to attach a "Votes For Women" scarf, and it killed her. A heroine amongst many who eventually brought about change with the vote being given to all Women over 21 years of age in 1928. So democracy takes time as I have stated, and is won eventually by much sweat, toil, and many, many tears. So it will be in Turkey I suspect. :( :( :( :(
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There has just been a lengthy item on our BBC news about the latest situation in Turkey Cem.
Tell me, do the red flags just represent socialist groups, or are they the communists?
communist parties :) (one is workers party but communist also)
Interesting to hear your President calling the protesters "pillagers". Just let him know from me they are actually freedom fighters fighting for the peoples rights as our ancestors did. So often seen as "terrorists" at the time, but in fact only common people demanding through direct action a revision of politics to recognise democratic justice. :D :D :y
this "pillagers" will cost him more than he can imagine.. he has lost taksim square in 5 days :D can say bye bye to his "presidential" dreams.. and more..
100 years ago the British Suffragettes took action to gain the vote for women and a Emily Davison brought down the Kings horse at Epsom whilst trying to attach a "Votes For Women" scarf, and it killed her. A heroine amongst many who eventually brought about change with the vote being given to all Women over 21 years of age in 1928. So democracy takes time as I have stated, and is won eventually by much sweat, toil, and many, many tears. So it will be in Turkey I suspect. :( :( :( :(
will be :y :y but cant predict how long and with what cost :-\
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picture of the day from Adana ??? :o
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x80/mecdv6/cesaret_zps857d0d33.jpg)
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There has just been a lengthy item on our BBC news about the latest situation in Turkey Cem.
Tell me, do the red flags just represent socialist groups, or are they the communists?
Interesting to hear your President calling the protesters "pillagers". Just let him know from me they are actually freedom fighters fighting for the peoples rights as our ancestors did. So often seen as "terrorists" at the time, but in fact only common people demanding through direct action a revision of politics to recognise democratic justice. :D :D :y
100 years ago the British Suffragettes took action to gain the vote for women and a Emily Davison brought down the Kings horse at Epsom whilst trying to attach a "Votes For Women" scarf, and it killed her. A heroine amongst many who eventually brought about change with the vote being given to all Women over 21 years of age in 1928. So democracy takes time as I have stated, and is won eventually by much sweat, toil, and many, many tears. So it will be in Turkey I suspect. :( :( :( :(
i sure the president of turkey is sh+tting himself now lizzie
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There has just been a lengthy item on our BBC news about the latest situation in Turkey Cem.
Tell me, do the red flags just represent socialist groups, or are they the communists?
Interesting to hear your President calling the protesters "pillagers". Just let him know from me they are actually freedom fighters fighting for the peoples rights as our ancestors did. So often seen as "terrorists" at the time, but in fact only common people demanding through direct action a revision of politics to recognise democratic justice. :D :D :y
100 years ago the British Suffragettes took action to gain the vote for women and a Emily Davison brought down the Kings horse at Epsom whilst trying to attach a "Votes For Women" scarf, and it killed her. A heroine amongst many who eventually brought about change with the vote being given to all Women over 21 years of age in 1928. So democracy takes time as I have stated, and is won eventually by much sweat, toil, and many, many tears. So it will be in Turkey I suspect. :( :( :( :(
i sure the president of turkey is sh+tting himself now lizzie
looking at the amount of gas they are farting ,must be very close ;D ;D ;D ;D
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There has just been a lengthy item on our BBC news about the latest situation in Turkey Cem.
Tell me, do the red flags just represent socialist groups, or are they the communists?
Interesting to hear your President calling the protesters "pillagers". Just let him know from me they are actually freedom fighters fighting for the peoples rights as our ancestors did. So often seen as "terrorists" at the time, but in fact only common people demanding through direct action a revision of politics to recognise democratic justice. :D :D :y
100 years ago the British Suffragettes took action to gain the vote for women and a Emily Davison brought down the Kings horse at Epsom whilst trying to attach a "Votes For Women" scarf, and it killed her. A heroine amongst many who eventually brought about change with the vote being given to all Women over 21 years of age in 1928. So democracy takes time as I have stated, and is won eventually by much sweat, toil, and many, many tears. So it will be in Turkey I suspect. :( :( :( :(
i sure the president of turkey is sh+tting himself now lizzie
I would be, she'll talk him into submission ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Lizzie, thanks for your interest.. :y
cant predict the reaction of west on Turkeys current situation, however, if west govts especially USA, didnt support current govt both financially and politically (which I hardly can grasp the truth) , those people would never become a govt here in the first place.. :(
and as for democracy.. there is 2 different Turkey actually.. one is well educated with west standards and living by west standards and do believe in democracy which you can compare to Britain democracy , and the other with no standards with an actual east way of thinking.. Unfortunately west supported this east head before :-X
This east / west divide is interesting as it is exactly the same in the country north of you Ukraine. The western side is pro-EU and western style democracy and the eastern side pro-Russian and a much more authoritarian form of democracy. The fact that both countries have this split suggests geography has a strong say in their style of politics and government,where they are both a gateway and a division between east and west, that both countries reflect this division with an east-west political divide looking in their respective directions.
At the moment Ukraine has an Eastern based president and government and this is reflected in the way it is governed.
Good observation Rods.. :y
Turkey however is a bit different.. the west east seperation is more like west or iran model which is very different than a Russian model..
Yes I agree also with Rods2 and his excellent observation. :y :y :y
From a personal view and observation, it was very noticeable how the young Slovakian, Romanian, and Ukrainian students at university, who were well versed in their respective countries political history, were so pro-western politics and our way of life. They saw that as their future, with a determination to do something about their countries politics to advance true democracy. They said, bar none, that their parents often recalled with fondness the USSR, but they and the young generally now rejected that way of life, seeking a western style of living.
They said Communism still existed, but was generally only supported by some of the elderly. :)
Change will happen of course in Eastern Europe, but it will take a lot more time. In Turkey currently that change is again going through a very painful period as Great Britain did in the 18th and 20th centuries:y :y
Most people are better off now than they were under communism. The exceptions are those those that had good lucrative positions as part of being a member of the ruling communist party. Unfortunately, corruption is still a legacy and major problem in most former communist countries. In Ukraine being a tax official, policeman or border guard is a sought after job, due to the unofficial perks! :o :o :o :o
There is still a major divide between the few rich and the many poor, but this is gradually changing due to individual enterprise and a slowly growing middle and high income group. Foreign investment is certainly helping in Ukraine with their IT industry the fastest growing in Europe with many western companies having set up overseas development or data processing divisions. The IT industry is primarily centred around Kiev and Lviv. 5 years ago 80% of the cars in Kiev were old Ladas and the other 20% of foreign manufacture, now it is the opposite with only about 20% Ladas. These seem to have been sold to people in poorer areas where car ownership has gone up but they are largely old Ladas.
There is also much new office and apartment construction going on in Kiev even though their economy was in recession in the second half of 2012 and the 1st quarter of 2013.
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Just let him know from me they are actually freedom fighters fighting for the peoples rights as our ancestors did. So often seen as "terrorists" at the time, but in fact only common people demanding through direct action a revision of politics to recognise democratic justice. :D :D :y
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter as the old saying goes..... :(
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There has just been a lengthy item on our BBC news about the latest situation in Turkey Cem.
Tell me, do the red flags just represent socialist groups, or are they the communists?
Interesting to hear your President calling the protesters "pillagers". Just let him know from me they are actually freedom fighters fighting for the peoples rights as our ancestors did. So often seen as "terrorists" at the time, but in fact only common people demanding through direct action a revision of politics to recognise democratic justice. :D :D :y
100 years ago the British Suffragettes took action to gain the vote for women and a Emily Davison brought down the Kings horse at Epsom whilst trying to attach a "Votes For Women" scarf, and it killed her. A heroine amongst many who eventually brought about change with the vote being given to all Women over 21 years of age in 1928. So democracy takes time as I have stated, and is won eventually by much sweat, toil, and many, many tears. So it will be in Turkey I suspect. :( :( :( :(
i sure the president of turkey is sh+tting himself now lizzie
Well someone has got to tell him!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;)
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currently at the moment more than 5 dead, more than 1000 wounded some are deadly and around 2000 arrested..
we have already passed the point of no return.. public has lost the trust to police .. lots of calls for doctors and help
I cant reach to follow messages in twitter an facebook :(
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There has just been a lengthy item on our BBC news about the latest situation in Turkey Cem.
Tell me, do the red flags just represent socialist groups, or are they the communists?
communist parties :) (one is workers party but communist also)
Interesting to hear your President calling the protesters "pillagers". Just let him know from me they are actually freedom fighters fighting for the peoples rights as our ancestors did. So often seen as "terrorists" at the time, but in fact only common people demanding through direct action a revision of politics to recognise democratic justice. :D :D :y
this "pillagers" will cost him more than he can imagine.. he has lost taksim square in 5 days :D can say bye bye to his "presidential" dreams.. and more..
100 years ago the British Suffragettes took action to gain the vote for women and a Emily Davison brought down the Kings horse at Epsom whilst trying to attach a "Votes For Women" scarf, and it killed her. A heroine amongst many who eventually brought about change with the vote being given to all Women over 21 years of age in 1928. So democracy takes time as I have stated, and is won eventually by much sweat, toil, and many, many tears. So it will be in Turkey I suspect. :( :( :( :(
will be :y :y but cant predict how long and with what cost :-\
Thanks Cem :y :y
As for your picture; great propaganda for those claiming police brutality! The protest groups should milk that for all it is worth :y :y :y :y
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There has just been a lengthy item on our BBC news about the latest situation in Turkey Cem.
Tell me, do the red flags just represent socialist groups, or are they the communists?
communist parties :) (one is workers party but communist also)
Interesting to hear your President calling the protesters "pillagers". Just let him know from me they are actually freedom fighters fighting for the peoples rights as our ancestors did. So often seen as "terrorists" at the time, but in fact only common people demanding through direct action a revision of politics to recognise democratic justice. :D :D :y
this "pillagers" will cost him more than he can imagine.. he has lost taksim square in 5 days :D can say bye bye to his "presidential" dreams.. and more..
100 years ago the British Suffragettes took action to gain the vote for women and a Emily Davison brought down the Kings horse at Epsom whilst trying to attach a "Votes For Women" scarf, and it killed her. A heroine amongst many who eventually brought about change with the vote being given to all Women over 21 years of age in 1928. So democracy takes time as I have stated, and is won eventually by much sweat, toil, and many, many tears. So it will be in Turkey I suspect. :( :( :( :(
will be :y :y but cant predict how long and with what cost :-\
Thanks Cem :y :y
As for your picture; great propaganda for those claiming police brutality! The protest groups should milk that for all it is worth :y :y :y :y
if I say there are more than a million pictures against, it wont be exxegeration Lizzie :y
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I just hope to hell that the Turks don't go down the Syrian road! :(
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I just hope to hell that the Turks don't go down the Syrian road! :(
I agree! :y :y :y :y
But the leaders of the protest groups in Turkey are talking in terms of a "Revolution" and until their President steps down they will continue with their direct action protests. Therefore there is no telling where this will all go.
But to cheer Cem up I again post my favourite Beatles song that is ideal in these instances:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HanKNe502i4
and then the more radical Beatles song Revolution 9 that if you listen to it closely for the whole, very long, track, as I have done many times over the decades, actually outlines the initial outburst of feelings, highs and lows, the distorted nature of the big political drive, then final peace of a real revolution of the people in musical terms - listen to the chants included. Magnificent for many of us Beatles fans, but maybe too much for those less interested!!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs_LHpiYUF0
After which, as on their original White Album, the Revolution is followed by the very peaceful Goodnight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIKugx1sToY
Sweet dreams for the people of Turkey, Goodnight :) :)
Brilliant! :-* :-* :-* :-*:y :y :y :y :y
:y :y :y :y
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I just hope to hell that the Turks don't go down the Syrian road! :(
thanks for your wish Tigger :y
I dont think it will be like Syria, but its early to be sure and to say anything :-\
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I just hope to hell that the Turks don't go down the Syrian road! :(
I agree! :y :y :y :y
But the leaders of the protest groups in Turkey are talking in terms of a "Revolution" and until their President steps down they will continue with their direct action protests. Therefore there is no telling where this will all go.
But to cheer Cem up I again post my favourite Beatles song that is ideal in these instances:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HanKNe502i4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HanKNe502i4)
and then the more radical Beatles song Revolution 9 that if you listen to it closely for the whole, very long, track, as I have done many times over the decades, actually outlines the initial outburst of feelings, highs and lows, the distorted nature of the big political drive, then final peace of a real revolution of the people in musical terms - listen to the chants included. Magnificent for many of us Beatles fans, but maybe too much for those less interested!!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs_LHpiYUF0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs_LHpiYUF0)
After which, as on their original White Album, the Revolution is followed by the very peaceful Goodnight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIKugx1sToY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIKugx1sToY)
Sweet dreams for the people of Turkey, Goodnight :) :)
Brilliant! :-* :-* :-* :-* :y :y :y :y :y
:y :y :y :y
thanks Lizzie :) :y
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currently at the moment more than 5 dead, more than 1000 wounded some are deadly and around 2000 arrested..
we have already passed the point of no return.. public has lost the trust to police .. lots of calls for doctors and help
I cant reach to follow messages in twitter an facebook :(
:( :( :(
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I just hope to hell that the Turks don't go down the Syrian road! :(
thanks for your wish Tigger :y
I dont think it will be like Syria, but its early to be sure and to say anything :-\
No, now perhaps not Cem.
To me, with the latest news that the protests are escalating and spreading to other cities away from Istanbul, it seems the form this is all taking is more like what transpired in Egypt with the ousting of their President. What do you think Cem? ??? ???
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I just hope to hell that the Turks don't go down the Syrian road! :(
thanks for your wish Tigger :y
I dont think it will be like Syria, but its early to be sure and to say anything :-\
No, now perhaps not Cem.
To me, with the latest news that the protests are escalating and spreading to other cities away from Istanbul, it seems the form this is all taking is more like what transpired in Egypt with the ousting of their President. What do you think Cem? ??? ???
there is a saying in my country " the elf left the bottle" , meaning we have left the point of no return behind..
the country become unstable to say the least.. including the justice system.. and most of the citizens lost their trust..
and that aside the pm is too stubborn .. so I expect things will get worse :-\
ps: he has now left the country for a "trip"
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I just hope to hell that the Turks don't go down the Syrian road! :(
thanks for your wish Tigger :y
I dont think it will be like Syria, but its early to be sure and to say anything :-\
No, now perhaps not Cem.
To me, with the latest news that the protests are escalating and spreading to other cities away from Istanbul, it seems the form this is all taking is more like what transpired in Egypt with the ousting of their President. What do you think Cem? ??? ???
there is a saying in my country " the elf genie left the bottle lamp" , meaning we have left the point of no return behind..
the country become unstable to say the least.. including the justice system.. and most of the citizens lost their trust..
and that aside the pm is too stubborn .. so I expect things will get worse :-\
ps: he has now left the country for a "trip"
Fixed that for you. :y
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I just hope to hell that the Turks don't go down the Syrian road! :(
thanks for your wish Tigger :y
I dont think it will be like Syria, but its early to be sure and to say anything :-\
No, now perhaps not Cem.
To me, with the latest news that the protests are escalating and spreading to other cities away from Istanbul, it seems the form this is all taking is more like what transpired in Egypt with the ousting of their President. What do you think Cem? ??? ???
there is a saying in my country " the elf genie left the bottle lamp" , meaning we have left the point of no return behind..
the country become unstable to say the least.. including the justice system.. and most of the citizens lost their trust..
and that aside the pm is too stubborn .. so I expect things will get worse :-\
ps: he has now left the country for a "trip"
Fixed that for you. :y
thanks :y
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Hope the unrest is not near your home cem :( Your president seems uninterested in the unrest and maybe thinks in time things will calm down . The news here says most unrest been caused by radicals and looters :-\
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Hope the unrest is not near your home cem :( Your president seems uninterested in the unrest and maybe thinks in time things will calm down . The news here says most unrest been caused by radicals and looters :-\
I have heard again on BBC he states they are "pillagers and looters" ;)
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Hope the unrest is not near your home cem :( Your president seems uninterested in the unrest and maybe thinks in time things will calm down . The news here says most unrest been caused by radicals and looters :-\
its everywhere and pops up randomly.. and the news not telling the truth if they say radicals and looters :(
the protestors are composed of very different political views. problem is as you can see the pm not listening anybody :(
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Hope the unrest is not near your home cem :( Your president seems uninterested in the unrest and maybe thinks in time things will calm down . The news here says most unrest been caused by radicals and looters :-\
its everywhere and pops up randomly.. and the news not telling the truth if they say radicals and looters :(
the protestors are composed of very different political views. problem is as you can see the pm not listening anybody :(
No, he won't Cem, and typically of all political leaders when confronted by direct action protests they criminalise those involved. It has happened repeatedly throughout the development of British democracy. This is what Turkey, regretfully, must go through - the pain barrier - before the aims of the people are eventually achieved. :y :y
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Hope the unrest is not near your home cem :( Your president seems uninterested in the unrest and maybe thinks in time things will calm down . The news here says most unrest been caused by radicals and looters :-\
its everywhere and pops up randomly.. and the news not telling the truth if they say radicals and looters :(
the protestors are composed of very different political views. problem is as you can see the pm not listening anybody :(
No, he won't Cem, and typically of all political leaders when confronted by direct action protests they criminalise those involved. It has happened repeatedly throughout the development of British democracy. This is what Turkey, regretfully, must go through - the pain barrier - before the aims of the people are eventually achieved. :y :y
People must stand up for their rights and not be dictated to , the masses have revolted . Pity the masses dont revolt in this country a bit more >:(
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Hope the unrest is not near your home cem :( Your president seems uninterested in the unrest and maybe thinks in time things will calm down . The news here says most unrest been caused by radicals and looters :-\
its everywhere and pops up randomly.. and the news not telling the truth if they say radicals and looters :(
the protestors are composed of very different political views. problem is as you can see the pm not listening anybody :(
No, he won't Cem, and typically of all political leaders when confronted by direct action protests they criminalise those involved. It has happened repeatedly throughout the development of British democracy. This is what Turkey, regretfully, must go through - the pain barrier - before the aims of the people are eventually achieved. :y :y
People must stand up for their rights and not be dictated to , the masses have revolted . Pity the masses dont revolt in this country a bit more >:(
But we have over the decades / centuries. In modern times remember the Newbury Cruise Missiles Protest; the Miners Strike; Poll Tax Riots; Iraq War marches; the Northfleet Power Station protest and many more various protests by local groups over roads, railway lines, etc, etc. ;) ;)
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When are the next elections due Cem? ???
Hopefully it's not long and the people of Turkey will get the chance to peacefully remove the PM Erdogan and his government via the ballot box.... :-\
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Pity the masses dont revolt in this country a bit more >:(
I think the masses couldn't be more revolting in this country!! :)
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When are the next elections due Cem? ???
Hopefully it's not long and the people of Turkey will get the chance to peacefully remove the PM Erdogan and his government via the ballot box.... :-\
nearly a year after.. but under those conditions, there wont be an honest election.. :( if there will be :-\
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its been 3 days I'm very angry .. after watching the events and what police had done..
in my opinion if someone in your face uses violence against you , the answer must be stronger..
this is not a game where you shout and gassed and hit.. if you want to get rid of these people
there is only one way.. either you shoot them or they shoot you.. >:(
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democracy don't come cheap .
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I'm sorry to share these.. :( but I thought I have to.. (anyway you may watch them on British media later)
results of police violence in İstanbul.. this a mosque converted to a temporary hospital by protestors..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L4iACzh4Q0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L4iACzh4Q0)
the woman talking is a doctor and says the gas is different kind than a usual tear gas or pepper gas whatever
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:o I dont think they will show that on our tv cem , bit too gory . Shocking all the same though ,
Not seen the news today , has it quietened down yet :-\
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:o I dont think they will show that on our tv cem , bit too gory . Shocking all the same though ,
Not seen the news today , has it quietened down yet :-\
nope.. today there were funerals in some southern cities.. ankara and istanbul is same , despite the rain..
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Cem I've been reading about Mustafa Kemal and have some questions:
1. How does joining the EU fit with this vision as the founding father of your country? You will be handing 80%+ of your law making over to Brussels.
Mustafa Kemal's basic tenet was the complete independence of the country. He clarified his position:
“...by complete independence, we mean of course complete economic, financial, juridical, military, cultural independence and freedom in all matters. Being deprived of independence in any of these is equivalent to the nation and country being deprived of all its independence.”
2. How does the current Government's pressure for women to wear headscarves fit with Mustafa Kemal's vision on the role of women in Turkish society? Is this one of the major reasons for the unrest?
The social change can come by (1) educating capable mothers who are knowledgeable about life; (2) giving freedom to women; (3) a man can change his morals, thoughts, and feelings by leading a common life with a woman; as there is an inborn tendency towards the attraction of mutual affection.”
Mustafa Kemal needed a new civil code to establish his second major step of giving freedom to women. The first part was the education of girls and was established with the unification of education. On 4 October 1926, the new Turkish civil code passed. It was modelled after the Swiss Civil Code. Under the new code, women gained equality with men in such matters as inheritance and divorce. Mustafa Kemal did not consider gender a factor in social organization. According to his view, society marched towards its goal with men and women united. He believed that it was scientifically impossible for him to achieve progress and to become civilized if the gender separation continued as in Ottoman times. During a meeting he declaimed:
“To the women: Win for us the battle of education and you will do yet more for your country than we have been able to do. It is to you that I appeal.
To the men: If henceforward the women do not share in the social life of the nation, we shall never attain to our full development. We shall remain irremediably backward, incapable of treating on equal terms with the civilizations of the West."
On 5 December 1934, Turkey moved to grant full political rights to women, before several other European nations. The equal rights of women in marriage had already been established in the earlier Turkish civil code. Women's place in Mustafa Kemal's cultural reforms was best expressed in the civic book prepared under his supervision. Mustafa Kemal said that
“There is no logical explanation for the political disenfranchisement of women. Any hesitation and negative mentality on this subject is nothing more than a fading social phenomenon of the past. ...Women must have the right to vote and to be elected; because democracy dictates that, because there are interests that women must defend, and because there are social duties that women must perform".
Mustafa Kemal looks like he was a remarkable leader whose vision created a modern enlightened Turkey, the opposite of a country like today's Iran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk)
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Cem I've been reading about Mustafa Kemal and have some questions:
1. How does joining the EU fit with this vision as the founding father of your country? You will be handing 80%+ of your law making over to Brussels.
Mustafa Kemal's basic tenet was the complete independence of the country. He clarified his position:
“...by complete independence, we mean of course complete economic, financial, juridical, military, cultural independence and freedom in all matters. Being deprived of independence in any of these is equivalent to the nation and country being deprived of all its independence.”
2. How does the current Government's pressure for women to wear headscarves fit with Mustafa Kemal's vision on the role of women in Turkish society? Is this one of the major reasons for the unrest?
The social change can come by (1) educating capable mothers who are knowledgeable about life; (2) giving freedom to women; (3) a man can change his morals, thoughts, and feelings by leading a common life with a woman; as there is an inborn tendency towards the attraction of mutual affection.”
Mustafa Kemal needed a new civil code to establish his second major step of giving freedom to women. The first part was the education of girls and was established with the unification of education. On 4 October 1926, the new Turkish civil code passed. It was modelled after the Swiss Civil Code. Under the new code, women gained equality with men in such matters as inheritance and divorce. Mustafa Kemal did not consider gender a factor in social organization. According to his view, society marched towards its goal with men and women united. He believed that it was scientifically impossible for him to achieve progress and to become civilized if the gender separation continued as in Ottoman times. During a meeting he declaimed:
“To the women: Win for us the battle of education and you will do yet more for your country than we have been able to do. It is to you that I appeal.
To the men: If henceforward the women do not share in the social life of the nation, we shall never attain to our full development. We shall remain irremediably backward, incapable of treating on equal terms with the civilizations of the West."
On 5 December 1934, Turkey moved to grant full political rights to women, before several other European nations. The equal rights of women in marriage had already been established in the earlier Turkish civil code. Women's place in Mustafa Kemal's cultural reforms was best expressed in the civic book prepared under his supervision. Mustafa Kemal said that
“There is no logical explanation for the political disenfranchisement of women. Any hesitation and negative mentality on this subject is nothing more than a fading social phenomenon of the past. ...Women must have the right to vote and to be elected; because democracy dictates that, because there are interests that women must defend, and because there are social duties that women must perform".
Mustafa Kemal looks like he was a remarkable leader whose vision created a modern enlightened Turkey, the opposite of a country like today's Iran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk)
thanks for sharing all those information Rods.. :y :y :y :y
1.good question :) :y
its doesnt fit anywhere else.. and who wants to join EU under the stated conditions is not his follower, despite their claims..
if he was alive he would insist the joining laws to be changed so that any country joining would not loose their indepedance in any area else he would refuse to enter without doubt..
2. Actually they claim that they want every woman to be free.. but thats not true.. and this type of dress never fits Atatürks vision..
with the exception of villager women who works under sun and dust in the land..
some of current generations who is now managing the country are educated from imam schools with a different culture.. those schools are opened in high numbers after Atatürks death by some politicans which some of them were hanged at the time.. because they were easy to manipulate under the force of religion.. todays clash of cultures stemmed from this type of educatiion..
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actually its the struggle between west type idea/education and east type ..
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My understanding is that there has always been an undercurrent from groups that would like to see Turkey more like Iran. This has happened right from Turkey's independence, where you mentioned the hangings as the result of an assassination plot against Mustafa Kemal.
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My understanding is that there has always been an undercurrent from groups that would like to see Turkey more like Iran. This has happened right from Turkey's independence, where you mentioned the hangings as the result of an assassination plot against Mustafa Kemal.
the hangings that I mention was at 1960.. it was the politicians who abuse religion :-\
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
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Your military certainly seem to like their coups and memorandums, 1960, 1971, 1980, 1997. :o :o :o :o
You seem to be getting similar problems to what caused the previous military interventions. The 1980 coup looks like it was very bloody and oppressive. :( :'(
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Your military certainly seem to like their coups and memorandums, 1960, 1971, 1980, 1997. :o :o :o :o
You seem to be getting similar problems to what caused the previous military interventions. The 1980 coup looks like it was very bloody and oppressive. :( :'(
1960 coupe was to stop a pm and a party who were using the reverse gear for the republic in the name of religion ..
but 1971 and 1980 were completely different ..1971 was to stop the freedom given by constitution and 1980 was prepared by gladio and overseas..
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one song ;D and some moments from protestors
http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html (http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html)
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one song ;D and some moments from protestors
http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html (http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html)
Have just peed my pants watching and listening to that ;D ;D ;D Excess force from the police , shame on them >:( >:(
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one song ;D and some moments from protestors
http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html (http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html)
Have just peed my pants watching and listening to that ;D ;D ;D Excess force from the police , shame on them >:( >:(
:y
I have lost the count of days since it started, but one thing is sure from now on pm cant do what he wants..
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one song ;D and some moments from protestors
http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html (http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html)
Very prophetic and cleverly done. :y
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one song ;D and some moments from protestors
http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html (http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html)
Very prophetic and cleverly done. :y
Quite shocking in parts.......... :( :(
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one song ;D and some moments from protestors
http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html (http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html)
Very prophetic and cleverly done. :y
thanks.. :y as you can see lots of people here readin/writing English so they can follow most of the internet and external media.. clearly you cant make them "sleep" ;D
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one song ;D and some moments from protestors
http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html (http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html)
Very prophetic and cleverly done. :y
Quite shocking in parts.......... :( :(
I'm afraid so :(
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pms and parties latest conclusion: "international conspiracy" oppsss.. :o :o
complete blindness :(
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13th day and Kızılay is like a war area ???
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some moments, please skip to 1:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1GjCc6k6W0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1GjCc6k6W0)
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Cem, is it true that your prime minister included the development in the square in his pre election manifesto and your people democratically elected him in ??
Just a thought ;)
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Police deploying smoke bombs then the wind blows the gas back into them ???
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Cem, is it true that your prime minister included the development in the square in his pre election manifesto and your people democratically elected him in ??
Just a thought ;)
nowadays pm has a bad habit .. he usually forgets what was the truth ;D :D
as for the election .. it was electronic and couldnt be verified.. so could be easily distorted.. :(
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Police deploying smoke bombs then the wind blows the gas back into them ???
winds justice ;D :y
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the cost: :(
5 dead :'(
11823 wounded :'(
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the cost: :(
5 dead :'(
11823 wounded :'(
:o :o I guess thats wounded by gas canisters ::) :-\
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the cost: :(
5 dead :'(
11823 wounded :'(
:o :o I guess thats wounded by gas canisters ::) :-\
Rubber bullets have also been used.
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the cost: :(
5 dead :'(
11823 wounded :'(
:o :o I guess thats wounded by gas canisters ::) :-\
Rubber bullets have also been used.
Better than live bullets :D :D ;)
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No democracy on here
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No democracy on here
TuBytatorship?
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the cost: :(
5 dead :'(
11823 wounded :'(
:o :o I guess thats wounded by gas canisters ::) :-\
Rubber bullets have also been used.
They wont hurt though ::)
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the cost: :(
5 dead :'(
11823 wounded :'(
:o :o I guess thats wounded by gas canisters ::) :-\
Nah, there just crap shots ;D
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No democracy on here
TuBytatorship?
Didn't Charlie Chaplin do a film on this? ???
Called "The Fat Dictator"? ;D
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Hope cem's ok , no post for 2 days :(
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i hope hes ok and not got involved
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thanks for your interest.. I'm ok :) :y
recently things are out of control here.. and no safety where there is police.. >:(
even the mp's have broken legs arms .. :(
some people shot dead with real bullets..
ps: if you are planning to come here , only visit southern touristic zones.. stay away from big cities..
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September 1980 deja vu :-\ ?
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Yep, as discussed before Cem, be very careful what you say on this or any other forum, and how you respond to all of us when we comment from the relative safety of England! :) :)
I will not comment on what is happening for this reason, and just let our media broadcast some of the information we need.
What is happening over Syria is also an issue that causes great concern on many levels, and although the politics are not directly concerning Turkey with it's issues, it is all too close to your border and there is the refugee problem............... Enough said from me :-X :-X :-X :-X
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September 1980 deja vu :-\ ?
seems it will be necessary :-\
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Just glad your safe mate :y
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Looks like another group of politicians making the classic mistake of if we are brutal enough they will go away, >:( >:( >:( when the reverse is true where each injury and death will get more people's backs up.
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Looks like another group of politicians making the classic mistake of if we are brutal enough they will go away, >:( >:( >:( when the reverse is true where each injury and death will get more people's backs up.
Yep, and that is how revolutionary movements have formed in the past and will continue to form all the time human rights are ignored :y :y :y :y :y
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What was that i heard on the news that reports of mixing the water cannons water with some kind of skin irritation >:(
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What was that i heard on the news that reports of mixing the water cannons water with some kind of skin irritation >:(
they are adding pepper gas into water..
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as far as I see from the external media, EU parliement and some europe politicans are saying that "from now on Turkey have no chance to enter EU" ??? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
someone must tell them that there is no expectancy left for this here including the politicians even if they talk different.. so this kind of statements have 0 effect.. we have more vital problems that we have to solve.. who cares..
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as far as I see from the external media, EU parliement and some europe politicans are saying that "from now on Turkey have no chance to enter EU" ??? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
someone must tell them that there is no expectancy left for this here including the politicians even if they talk different.. so this kind of statements have 0 effect.. we have more vital problems that we have to solve.. who cares..
They still seem to think it is actually desirable for a country to be a full member of the EU dictatorship, so the majority of laws are made by remote, out of touch bureaucrats, in Brussels. >:( >:( >:( >:(
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as far as I see from the external media, EU parliement and some europe politicans are saying that "from now on Turkey have no chance to enter EU" ??? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
someone must tell them that there is no expectancy left for this here including the politicians even if they talk different.. so this kind of statements have 0 effect.. we have more vital problems that we have to solve.. who cares..
If you join the EU, your economy will be put back twenty years. ;D
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as far as I see from the external media, EU parliement and some europe politicans are saying that "from now on Turkey have no chance to enter EU" ??? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
someone must tell them that there is no expectancy left for this here including the politicians even if they talk different.. so this kind of statements have 0 effect.. we have more vital problems that we have to solve.. who cares..
If you join the EU, your economy will be put back twenty years. ;D
without doubt.. but anyway this will never happen :y
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ps: if you are planning to come here , only visit southern touristic zones.. stay away from big cities..
Stop scarmongering, haha :D
On a serious level Cem this is no longer a protest, and never really had been. A bunch of opportunists took over VERY quickly.
I blame the 'real' protestors for the situation spiraling out of control (by real I mean the peaceful folk with the original intention of the protest.)
When these opportunists arrived from all walks of the country (and from abroad, suprise suprise) the real protesters should have told them to either fook off and leave their peaceful protest alone, or should have simply walked away immediately after realizing their protest had been hijacked. This made it extremely difficult for the police and that is a fact (no I'm not taking sides.)
The only reason why this 'peaceful' protest (ha!) is still going on is because the police have no clue who is who half of the time and the good folk aren't doing them any favors by mixing in with the people who have terrorized and tarnished Istanbul (and now the rest of Turkey.)
Do you know how much damage was done to the innocent shop keepers, homes and cars of people who work and live there? How ignorant are these protestors to not realise what is going on around them and simply say "OK, the protest has been hijacked" and walk away? The moment political flags began waving, that protest was long lost.
I have no sympathy for the 'protestors' or the police for that matter.
What really ticked me off is when Obama, the president of the great (haha) United States of America got up on T.V and said how bad the Turkish police handled the situation and generally badmouthed the country.
Meanwhile in America...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC3OAMi9kjY
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Stop scarmongering, haha :D
::) do you know how many foreign cameraman, journalist have been arrested and how many of them beaten :D
On a serious level Cem this is no longer a protest, and never really had been.
half of the country doesnt agree with that opinion.. and the whole world.. why do you think people are killed, shot, become blind, wounded and arrested.. and the videos / pictures were lying ? ???
A bunch of opportunists took over VERY quickly.
very wrong.. there were people from every political opinion..
I blame the 'real' protestors for the situation spiraling out of control.
:o :o :o :o :o >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
why you dont mention about police terror and violence is really an unavoidable question to ask ? :D
(by real I mean the peaceful folk with the original intention of the protest.)
When these opportunists arrived from all walks of the country (and from abroad, suprise suprise) the real protesters should have told them to either fook off and leave their peaceful protest alone, or should have simply walked away immediately after realizing their protest had been hijacked. This made it extremely difficult for the police and that is a fact (no I'm not taking sides.)
you are absolutely holding a side.. :(
Do you know how much damage was done to the innocent shop keepers, homes and cars of people who work and live there?
I live in that country and you are repeating the words of pm.. who cares about your money when people are dying.. >:(
How ignorant are these protestors to not realise what is going on around them and simply say "OK, the protest has been hijacked" and walk away? The moment political flags began to be waived, that protest was lost.
the protest has succeded.. but one thing you dont understand obviously is that it has exceeded the subject of park and reached different stages..
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Very wrong.. there were people from every political opinion..
This is exactly my point Cem, what started off as a peaceful protest by a handful of people against a building being constructed, turned into a political war completely irreverent to the cause of the protest. All of which began when random people started showing up waiving political flags and tarnishing the place as an excuse to vent boredom. I will NEVER EVER take sides, especially with people like that. They wanted excitement, they found it, but sadly by hiding behind innocent people.
Do I care for the police? Absolutely not... They are the police... they have the license to behave like a-holes... whats so new about that? I've had first hand experience with police, I know EXACTLY what they are like. No need to convince me there.
the protest has succeded.. but one thing you dont understand obviously is that it has exceeded the subject of park and reached different stages..
Exactly my point... It had nothing to do with the park the second someone pulled out a political flag. Nothing to do with the protest at all. The morning of the protest I was really sympathetic as there was a true point to it. If I was there I would have probably joined in too. However, it spiraled out of control as fast as it started and BOTH sides did NOTHING to stop it.
How do you call all the people hurt in the process, by the cowards who hid behind them, a success? Again, you can't seem to separate the people who are the real protestors from the Molotov lobbers hiding behind them. This is what I am getting at.
The mistake the protestors did was allow people to show up for their own gains and agenda, completely irrelevant to the protest and allow them to mix in with them tarnishing the place in the name of Taksim Square. I mean, c'mon! The whole 'enemy of my enemy' move was a bad one. You just have to accept that.
I live in that country and you are repeating the words of pm.. who cares about your money when people are dying.. >:(
Once again, I will not stand by hypocrites who in the name of a peaceful protest, ruined other peoples lives (Molotov bombing random shops and cars, really?!) All done by opportunists who had nothing to do with the protest. When police brutality goes haywire, the response to that is to attack innocent people and their property? and you sympathize with that? I really don't understand. :-\
I think you missed my point entirely btw. :P
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is just a friggin damn lie.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
What? You mean you only just worked this out? ???
nope.. but it feels so different to grasp it again when someone breaks your head ;D
thats an interesting compilation.. not too bloody..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIdREXpZBz4
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Very wrong.. there were people from every political opinion..
This is exactly my point Cem, what started off as a peaceful protest by a handful of people against a building being constructed, turned into a political war completely irreverent to the cause of the protest. All of which began when random people started showing up waiving political flags and tarnishing the place as an excuse to vent boredom. I will NEVER EVER take sides, especially with people like that. They wanted excitement, they found it, but sadly by hiding behind innocent people.
Do I care for the police? Absolutely not... They are the police... they have the license to behave like a-holes... whats so new about that? I've had first hand experience with police, I know EXACTLY what they are like. No need to convince me there.
the protest has succeded.. but one thing you dont understand obviously is that it has exceeded the subject of park and reached different stages..
Exactly my point... It had nothing to do with the park the second someone pulled out a political flag. Nothing to do with the protest at all. The morning of the protest I was really sympathetic as there was a true point to it. If I was there I would have probably joined in too. However, it spiraled out of control as fast as it started and BOTH sides did NOTHING to stop it.
How do you call all the people hurt in the process, by the cowards who hid behind them, a success? Again, you can't seem to separate the people who are the real protestors from the Molotov lobbers hiding behind them. This is what I am getting at.
The mistake the protestors did was allow people to show up for their own gains and agenda, completely irrelevant to the protest and allow them to mix in with them tarnishing the place in the name of Taksim Square. I mean, c'mon! The whole 'enemy of my enemy' move was a bad one. You just have to accept that.
I live in that country and you are repeating the words of pm.. who cares about your money when people are dying.. >:(
Once again, I will not stand by hypocrites who in the name of a peaceful protest, ruined other peoples lives (Molotov bombing random shops and cars, really?!) All done by opportunists who had nothing to do with the protest. When police brutality goes haywire, the response to that is to attack innocent people and their property? and you sympathize with that? I really don't understand. :-\
I think you missed my point entirely btw. :P
Jabe, its been many years masses are living under pressure.. the park was the starting point and police and the govt fuelled the fire and finally people decided to get rid of whole govt.. lots of cities having protest every night for 20 days.. thats not a joke..
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This is exactly my point Cem, what started off as a peaceful protest by a handful of people against a building being constructed, turned into a political war completely irreverent to the cause of the protest. ... It had nothing to do with the park the second someone pulled out a political flag. Nothing to do with the protest at all. The morning of the protest I was really sympathetic as there was a true point to it.
We had a peaceful protest here against the stupid and illegal Iraq war. 1 million people. Achieved SFA. And that's in the UK so in Turkey what would it achieve? On the other hand against Thatcher we had poll tax riots. Seemed to work.
I think the park is a minor issue compared to other stuff like Erdogan trying to start WW3 in Syria.
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This is exactly my point Cem, what started off as a peaceful protest by a handful of people against a building being constructed, turned into a political war completely irreverent to the cause of the protest. ... It had nothing to do with the park the second someone pulled out a political flag. Nothing to do with the protest at all. The morning of the protest I was really sympathetic as there was a true point to it.
We had a peaceful protest here against the stupid and illegal Iraq war. 1 million people. Achieved SFA. And that's in the UK so in Turkey what would it achieve? On the other hand against Thatcher we had poll tax riots. Seemed to work.
I think the park is a minor issue compared to other stuff like Erdogan trying to start WW3 in Syria.
Indeed, and as I have said repeatedly on this forum, and elsewhere in academic circles, we must learn from history. All free mankind has achieved has been with revolt and violence of some type to drive the revolution and make governments sit up and take notice of "the people". I hate violence, but it is a fact that this element is what makes history change; makes things happen, maybe not instantly, but it turns the tide.
I won't bore everyone by repeating references to historical events as I am sure most of you can identify with key historical events and the changes caused in Great Britain and generally across the world. What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want. Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be. :y :y
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This is exactly my point Cem, what started off as a peaceful protest by a handful of people against a building being constructed, turned into a political war completely irreverent to the cause of the protest. ... It had nothing to do with the park the second someone pulled out a political flag. Nothing to do with the protest at all. The morning of the protest I was really sympathetic as there was a true point to it.
We had a peaceful protest here against the stupid and illegal Iraq war. 1 million people. Achieved SFA. And that's in the UK so in Turkey what would it achieve? On the other hand against Thatcher we had poll tax riots. Seemed to work.
I think the park is a minor issue compared to other stuff like Erdogan trying to start WW3 in Syria.
at the least the pm can say bye bye to his becomeing an ottoman emperor dreams.. and now he saw that there is a wall in front of his endless commands >:(
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This is exactly my point Cem, what started off as a peaceful protest by a handful of people against a building being constructed, turned into a political war completely irreverent to the cause of the protest. ... It had nothing to do with the park the second someone pulled out a political flag. Nothing to do with the protest at all. The morning of the protest I was really sympathetic as there was a true point to it.
We had a peaceful protest here against the stupid and illegal Iraq war. 1 million people. Achieved SFA. And that's in the UK so in Turkey what would it achieve? On the other hand against Thatcher we had poll tax riots. Seemed to work.
I think the park is a minor issue compared to other stuff like Erdogan trying to start WW3 in Syria.
Indeed, and as I have said repeatedly on this forum, and elsewhere in academic circles, we must learn from history. All free mankind has achieved has been with revolt and violence of some type to drive the revolution and make governments sit up and take notice of "the people". I hate violence, but it is a fact that this element is what makes history change; makes things happen, maybe not instantly, but it turns the tide.
I won't bore everyone by repeating references to historical events as I am sure most of you can identify with key historical events and the changes caused in Great Britain and generally across the world. What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want. Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be. :y :y
yep..
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Rather than the peaceful park protest being hijacked, IMHO it was a focal point that lit a rebellious fire that has been smoldering for some time where the current government is going against the wishes of the majority where they want a free modern state. They don't want Turkey turned into Iran, which with their new rules like trying to make women wear head-scarfs. It is noticeable how many women are involved in the protests, where they are not going to take religious repression sitting down.
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Rather than the peaceful park protest being hijacked, IMHO it was a focal point that lit a rebellious fire that has been smoldering for some time where the current government is going against the wishes of the majority where they want a free modern state. They don't want Turkey turned into Iran, which with their new rules like trying to make women wear head-scarfs. It is noticeable how many women are involved in the protests, where they are not going to take religious repression sitting down.
No offense but I don't think that had anything to do with it... or did I miss something?
And when were these new proposed laws announced? I never heard anything like that. I don't think anybody did.
Are you suggesting that because women were involved in the protest - they were trying to make some kind of feminist statement? I'm confused here. :-\
Have you ever been to Turkey?
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Rather than the peaceful park protest being hijacked, IMHO it was a focal point that lit a rebellious fire that has been smoldering for some time where the current government is going against the wishes of the majority where they want a free modern state. They don't want Turkey turned into Iran, which with their new rules like trying to make women wear head-scarfs. It is noticeable how many women are involved in the protests, where they are not going to take religious repression sitting down.
No offense but I don't think that had anything to do with it... or did I miss something?
And when were these new proposed laws announced? I never heard anything like that. I don't think anybody did.
Are you suggesting that because women were involved in the protest - they were trying to make some kind of feminist statement? I'm confused here. :-\
Have you ever been to Turkey?
its too much related ı'm afraid.. although there is no law stating that woman must wear those head scarfs,
in poor regions of cities especially where villagers have immigrated to, there is a certain unnamed pressure felt by women.. besides there is really two different life styles where political views also highly differ.. the masses vote this govt party because of religion and their help of food and other goods..
and its also very clear that this party invade our lifes and change our life style step by step.. they nearly capture whole justice system after referandum..
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Rather than the peaceful park protest being hijacked, IMHO it was a focal point that lit a rebellious fire that has been smoldering for some time where the current government is going against the wishes of the majority where they want a free modern state. They don't want Turkey turned into Iran, which with their new rules like trying to make women wear head-scarfs. It is noticeable how many women are involved in the protests, where they are not going to take religious repression sitting down.
No offense but I don't think that had anything to do with it... or did I miss something?
Maybe you missed this (that's pepper spray)
(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-130604-woman-in-red-jsw.photoblog600.gif)
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Loraine, is the name of a French university student who has been a random victim detained by police..
and as she is foreign ;she was blamed to be a spy :o :o :o >:( (not the woman in the picture)
thats todays news..
she was here with the erasmus program ... caught by the police!!!! in taksim , beaten from the head
taken to the police station, before she starts to call a lawyer some media has announced that she was a spy ::) ::)
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Rather than the peaceful park protest being hijacked, IMHO it was a focal point that lit a rebellious fire that has been smoldering for some time where the current government is going against the wishes of the majority where they want a free modern state. They don't want Turkey turned into Iran, which with their new rules like trying to make women wear head-scarfs. It is noticeable how many women are involved in the protests, where they are not going to take religious repression sitting down.
No offense but I don't think that had anything to do with it... or did I miss something?
Maybe you missed this (that's pepper spray)
(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-130604-woman-in-red-jsw.photoblog600.gif)
:y :y :y
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... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want. Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be. :y :y
It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism. Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion. There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.
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This one was in Oregon USA (no need to import the spray that time)
(http://media.oregonlive.com/oregonian/photo/2011/11/10268528-standard.jpg)
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... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want. Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be. :y :y
It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism. Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion. There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.
it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own ;D ;D
honestly most of the protesters are middle class well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation.. and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
once this start, it wont stop until things change :y
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears
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... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want. Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be. :y :y
It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism. Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion. There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.
it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own ;D ;D
honestly most of the protesters are middle class well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation.. and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
once this start, it wont stop until things change :y
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears
..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789. Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th. It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever. This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising. :y :y
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... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want. Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be. :y :y
It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism. Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion. There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.
it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own ;D ;D
honestly most of the protesters are middle class well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation.. and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
once this start, it wont stop until things change :y
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears
..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789. Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th. It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever. This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising. :y :y
Lizzie our greatest revolution is in 1923 where my ancestors brought down the ottoman empire and established a new republic..
however, until today some foreign power combined with local betrayers eat up the republic and we reached today >:(
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Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.
Why do you think that? ??? :-\
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... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want. Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be. :y :y
It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism. Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion. There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.
it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own ;D ;D
honestly most of the protesters are middle class well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation.. and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
once this start, it wont stop until things change :y
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears
..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789. Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th. It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever. This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising. :y :y
Lizzie our greatest revolution is in 1923 where my ancestors brought down the ottoman empire and established a new republic..
however, until today some foreign power combined with local betrayers eat up the republic and we reached today >:(
Cem, I really hope you're not headed into the same direction as my former country 23 years ago....the reasons for it were much similar to what you described
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... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want. Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be. :y :y
It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism. Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion. There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.
it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own ;D ;D
honestly most of the protesters are middle class well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation.. and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
once this start, it wont stop until things change :y
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears
..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789. Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th. It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever. This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising. :y :y
Lizzie our greatest revolution is in 1923 where my ancestors brought down the ottoman empire and established a new republic..
however, until today some foreign power combined with local betrayers eat up the republic and we reached today >:(
Cem, I really hope you're not headed into the same direction as my former country 23 years ago....the reasons for it were much similar to what you described
Honestly with all this happening no one can estimate what will happen after but I guess it wont be worse than that..
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Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.
Why do you think that? ??? :-\
Do you mean why do I think that it's not a democracy or why do I think that it's lucky it's not a democracy?
The former is probably not very contentious. However the West are always very quick to denounce countries as not democracies (with the strange recent exception of Iran) and ignore the fact that almost every country has some form of representation and elected councils (eg Libya did, Cuba does). So you could argue there is some democracy in that the Party positions are elected within the Party, but most would agree China is not very democratic.
By the latter I mean the World and China itself are lucky not having a perfect democracy at the moment because, being early on its capitalist period, the vast majority of Chinese work on the land. If it had a perfect democracy (i.e. the country run in the interests of the majority) China would be being run in the interest of the peasants. Consequently it would probably be occupied by some other country.
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Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.
Why do you think that? ??? :-\
Do you mean why do I think that it's not a democracy or why do I think that it's lucky it's not a democracy?
The former is probably not very contentious. However the West are always very quick to denounce countries as not democracies (with the strange recent exception of Iran) and ignore the fact that almost every country has some form of representation and elected councils (eg Libya did, Cuba does). So you could argue there is some democracy in that the Party positions are elected within the Party, but most would agree China is not very democratic.
By the latter I mean the World and China itself are lucky not having a perfect democracy at the moment because, being early on its capitalist period, the vast majority of Chinese work on the land. If it had a perfect democracy (i.e. the country run in the interests of the majority) China would be being run in the interest of the peasants. Consequently it would probably be occupied by some other country.
They tried that with collectivisation and it lead to mass starvation. After the cultural revolution, which was meant to reinvent the communist country, but just made it worse, their choices were to go the route they have gone or become a bigger version of North Korea.
One party states do have elections, but the real power is held in a rigid autocratic way, where elected assemblies rubber stamp, what has been decided, with at best a few rough edges rounded off. This is like the old USSR and the current EU. In both case the elected assembly could not introduce legislation. Under the Soviet system this was the Politburo and with the EU, the 27 commissioners plus the commission president.
What will happen in China is interesting where the Government controlled industries and Banks are very corrupt and making big losses and with the way the Chinese Libor rate is rising at the moment, suggests their economy could be in for a hard landing over the next few months.
The reason that autocratic countries are generally poorer than democratic ones where you have checks and balances is that in more democratic free market economies capital is allocated much more efficiently and productively.
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By the latter I mean the World and China itself are lucky not having a perfect democracy at the moment because, being early on its capitalist period, the vast majority of Chinese work on the land. If it had a perfect democracy (i.e. the country run in the interests of the majority) China would be being run in the interest of the peasants. Consequently it would probably be occupied by some other country.
Why do you think China would be occupied by another country if it was a democracy? :-\
India is the biggest democracy in the world by population and it also has an impoverished majority who work the land yet it has been independent since 1947. Sorry I don't understand..... :-\
Anyway, there's no such thing as a perfect democracy, never has been and never will! ::) A country being run in the interests of the majority!!?? :o Whatever next!!! ;D
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One party states do have elections, but the real power is held in a rigid autocratic way, where elected assemblies rubber stamp, what has been decided, with at best a few rough edges rounded off. This is like the old USSR and the current EU. In both case the elected assembly could not introduce legislation. Under the Soviet system this was the Politburo and with the EU, the 27 commissioners plus the commission president.
Well having denied Chinese democracy I don't really want to defend it but the Chinese National People's Congress, elected by the party does propose legislation as well as draft, amend and approve it. Delegates to the NPC are elected for five-year terms via a multi-tiered representative electoral system. Delegates are elected by the provincial people's assemblies, who in turn are elected by lower level assemblies, and so on through a series of tiers to the local people's assemblies which are directly elected by the electorate .I wouldn't say though on any empirical analysis the government represents the immediate interests of the majority of Chinese. They think they know better, and probably do.
Despite popular belief almost all countries have some system involving democracy at some stage (even we do, every 5 years!). But there's a lot of power and vested interest that can be subtly applied at all stages. Not to mention the media. If you don't believe that happens in the UK (bring back hanging why don't we!) or USA you need a sight test.
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Why do you think China would be occupied by another country if it was a democracy? :-\
Because if it was run in the immediate interests of the majority (land workers) it would be a country sitting on a lot of natural and geographic resources with not much industry and military. Surrounded by a lot of advanced capitalist countries with high tech militaries and industries and not enough resources.
India is the biggest democracy in the world by population and it also has an impoverished majority who work the land yet it has been independent since 1947. Sorry I don't understand..... :-\
India's a very different country, very crowded, lots of urban dwellers. When it was a feudal country it was occupied. By us. They are now more capitalist and pretty quickly the 1% in India got themselves some nukes. Invasion suddenly becomes unlikely after a succesful test.
Anyway, there's no such thing as a perfect democracy, never has been and never will! ::) A country being run in the interests of the majority!!?? :o Whatever next!!! ;D
Will happen one day. Next day there'll be a coup though 8).
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One party states do have elections, but the real power is held in a rigid autocratic way, where elected assemblies rubber stamp, what has been decided, with at best a few rough edges rounded off. This is like the old USSR and the current EU. In both case the elected assembly could not introduce legislation. Under the Soviet system this was the Politburo and with the EU, the 27 commissioners plus the commission president.
Well having denied Chinese democracy I don't really want to defend it but the Chinese National People's Congress, elected by the party does propose legislation as well as draft, amend and approve it. Delegates to the NPC are elected for five-year terms via a multi-tiered representative electoral system. Delegates are elected by the provincial people's assemblies, who in turn are elected by lower level assemblies, and so on through a series of tiers to the local people's assemblies which are directly elected by the electorate .I wouldn't say though on any empirical analysis the government represents the immediate interests of the majority of Chinese. They think they know better, and probably do.
Despite popular belief almost all countries have some system involving democracy at some stage (even we do, every 5 years!). But there's a lot of power and vested interest that can be subtly applied at all stages. Not to mention the media. If you don't believe that happens in the UK (bring back hanging why don't we!) or USA you need a sight test.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_People%27s_Congress) rules ok (See Election and membership section) ;) ;)
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No I think that means google rules, unless you are smart enough to use wikipedia and came across it that way.
Probably not ;)
Or maybe you get all your info first hand. Your right hand ;D ;D ;D
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I have just found this forum and followed the debate with interest.
I at the moment am just coming to the end of a 3 month stay in Fethiye where I have a holiday home and whilst there have not been any violence or incidents that get reported there is still a quiet protest. Each evening at sunset a group, probably 100 people gather under the statue of Ataturk, drape themselves with the Turkish flag and just stand quietly.
If you listen to the conversations you find a majority of the people do have problems with Erdogan and it goes a lot further than Istanbul or Ankara.
The protests go a lot further than trees in a park. that was only the catalyst. Erdogan has over the years been slowly changing the constitution from a secular to an islamic culture. He is setting the agenda by altering the funding for schools. 70% of educational funding goes to religious shools leaving the secular schools to fend for themselves. This in itself changes the nature of the future population as they will come out of school with an agenda rather than a liberal viewpoint. This, along with small but subtle changes that have not gone unoticed are now being challenged by a young educated movement.
Trees in a park have started a challenge to the future direction of Turkey and at present nobody knows the outcome.
It is such a shame because i have lived here for 10yrs and a nicer more hospitable people I have never met. I go back to UK next week and the contrast will be obvious as soon as I get off the plane. :-\
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I have just found this forum and followed the debate with interest.
I at the moment am just coming to the end of a 3 month stay in Fethiye where I have a holiday home and whilst there have not been any violence or incidents that get reported there is still a quiet protest. Each evening at sunset a group, probably 100 people gather under the statue of Ataturk, drape themselves with the Turkish flag and just stand quietly.
If you listen to the conversations you find a majority of the people do have problems with Erdogan and it goes a lot further than Istanbul or Ankara.
The protests go a lot further than trees in a park. that was only the catalyst. Erdogan has over the years been slowly changing the constitution from a secular to an islamic culture. He is setting the agenda by altering the funding for schools. 70% of educational funding goes to religious shools leaving the secular schools to fend for themselves. This in itself changes the nature of the future population as they will come out of school with an agenda rather than a liberal viewpoint. This, along with small but subtle changes that have not gone unoticed are now being challenged by a young educated movement.
Trees in a park have started a challenge to the future direction of Turkey and at present nobody knows the outcome.
It is such a shame because i have lived here for 10yrs and a nicer more hospitable people I have never met. I go back to UK next week and the contrast will be obvious as soon as I get off the plane. :-\
I also like Fethiye too.. And wish to live there when retired if budget permits.. :)
and your understanding of events is definitely correct.. thanks for sharing :y
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Why do you think China would be occupied by another country if it was a democracy? :-\
Because if it was run in the immediate interests of the majority (land workers) it would be a country sitting on a lot of natural and geographic resources with not much industry and military. Surrounded by a lot of advanced capitalist countries with high tech militaries and industries and not enough resources.
India is the biggest democracy in the world by population and it also has an impoverished majority who work the land yet it has been independent since 1947. Sorry I don't understand..... :-\
India's a very different country, very crowded, lots of urban dwellers. When it was a feudal country it was occupied. By us. They are now more capitalist and pretty quickly the 1% in India got themselves some nukes. Invasion suddenly becomes unlikely after a succesful test.
Anyway, there's no such thing as a perfect democracy, never has been and never will! ::) A country being run in the interests of the majority!!?? :o Whatever next!!! ;D
Will happen one day. Next day there'll be a coup though 8).
I disagree with your views about both countries dbdb.
If China had been an open and free democratic country since the demise of the Emperors in 1916, with a free market economy and the rule of law, the world would be a very different place. A strong China in the 1930's might have deterred Japanese ambitions then, which might have led to different outcomes in WW2 and the Cold War. They would probably now be the worlds largest economy and possibly the world's biggest military power, both of which they may well achieve in the coming years anyway, but only after Deng Xiaoping liberalised the economy in the 1980's. Incidentally China has been a nuclear power since the 1960's and is a permanent member of the UN Security Council, they have a standing army of over 2 million, so I doubt they would be occupied by another country, democracy or not.
India was as you rightly say, occupied by us, but it was not a democracy before the British arrived and certainly wasn't under British rule. Again India's economy has flourished since the economy was liberalised in the 1990's and it is a relative newcomer to the nuclear club. India also has a strong military.
I think there are similarities between the two countries. Both have huge populations of over a billion people, both have a large agrarian peasantry and both have large urban metropolises where people flock to from the countryside in search of work and both countries economies have taken off following liberalisation. :)
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... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want. Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be. :y :y
It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism. Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion. There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.
it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own ;D ;D
honestly most of the protesters are middle class well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation.. and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
once this start, it wont stop until things change :y
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears
..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789. Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th. It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever. This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising. :y :y
Lizzie our greatest revolution is in 1923 where my ancestors brought down the ottoman empire and established a new republic..
however, until today some foreign power combined with local betrayers eat up the republic and we reached today >:(
Ah yes, under the leadership of the great Mustafa Kemal Atatürk as I understand who was instrumental in creating a modern, democratic, and secular nation-state, a Republic, in 1923. :y :y :y
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..but only after Deng Xiaoping liberalised the economy in the 1980's.
::)
China was a planned economy and completed most of its development under this state.. And although there are liberal reforms still its a planned economy :) :y
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... What is happening in Turkey is purely an extension of that trend, to change a political system to what the citizens want. Blood, sweat, tears and death are all part of that process, and the more that is "invested" in that way, the greater the changes will be. :y :y
It's a change from the end of feudalism to full on capitalism. Feudalism comes with a few monarchs (AKA dictators, depending on your point of view), many peasants and plenty of religion. There's always a backlash from the feudalists when it's time to change. Happening throughout the Middle East except Israel, which seems to have got stuck in apartheid/facism. Interestingly China seems way ahead, peasants still easily outnumber the rest but luckily it is not a democracy.
it would , if there would be some serious money in banks and the system.. most of the money circulating in the system is foreign traders money actually as we have depleted our own ;D ;D
honestly most of the protesters are middle class well educated.. but now even those families are too tight in money situation.. and add also the pressure of the govt to change their life style, they start to rebel..
once this start, it wont stop until things change :y
ps: even USA see the danger and tried to warn the govt by the ambassador.. but its a whisper droppped on deaf ears
..........and that Cem is the mark of a real revolution; the middle, educated and professional classes rebelling against an oppressive, unfair and unjust system. This was true with the greatest revolution of all; the French Revolution of 1789. Since then revolutionary movements have been fuelled by those classes, and particularly in Great Britain during the 17th to 19th centuries, and then onto the 20th. It was feared in the distant past by the elite, the aristocracy, that if you educate the lower classes they will gain knowledge and power, rising up to challenge the ruling classes, including the Church. That happened via the enlightenment and changed the English / British democracy forever. This is obviously now the crucial key in the Turkish uprising. :y :y
Lizzie our greatest revolution is in 1923 where my ancestors brought down the ottoman empire and established a new republic..
however, until today some foreign power combined with local betrayers eat up the republic and we reached today >:(
Ah yes, under the leadership of the great Mustafa Kemal Atatürk as I understand who was instrumental in creating a modern, democratic, and secular nation-state, a Republic, in 1923. :y :y :y
yes Lizzie.. he was a great commander and a leader.. if he wasnt there at the correct time and place we would be very similiar to other middle east countries ..
probably still ruled by an emperor although some tries to be .. >:(
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No I think that means google rules, unless you are smart enough to use wikipedia and came across it that way.
Probably not ;)
Or maybe you get all your info first hand. Your right hand ;D ;D ;D
Highlighted text exactly as on Wikipedia (see link post #148 ;)) - normal to put quoted text in "", not post it as your own words. ::) Thats misleading ???
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If China had been an open and free democratic country since the demise of the Emperors in 1916, with a free market economy and the rule of law, the world would be a very different place. A strong China in the 1930's might have deterred Japanese ambitions then, which might have led to different outcomes in WW2 and the Cold War. They would probably now be the worlds largest economy and possibly the world's biggest military power, both of which they may well achieve in the coming years anyway, but only after Deng Xiaoping liberalised the economy in the 1980's. Incidentally China has been a nuclear power since the 1960's and is a permanent member of the UN Security Council, they have a standing army of over 2 million, so I doubt they would be occupied by another country, democracy or not.
I don't disagree with that but there are a lot of ifs. I don't see becoming a capitalist based economy as being a choice by some small clique, or a choice by all the population, there's much more too it than that. China couldn't have been a capitalist in the 1930s even it it wanted to. I think you have in mind some mystical link between western democracy and a capitalist economy - that if ony countries had western democracy and liberalised their economy they would boom quickly into advanced capitalism. I see it as the other way round, you get what we call democracy (yeah sure) when the country becomes capitalist.
India was as you rightly say, occupied by us, but it was not a democracy before the British arrived and certainly wasn't under British rule. Again India's economy has flourished since the economy was liberalised in the 1990's and it is a relative newcomer to the nuclear club. India also has a strong military.
Agree with all that too, my point was that when it was fully feudal it had monarchy/dictatorship, and got occupied by the then most advanced capitalist power in the World, us, for its resources and location.
I think there are similarities between the two countries. Both have huge populations of over a billion people, both have a large agrarian peasantry and both have large urban metropolises where people flock to from the countryside in search of work and both countries economies have taken off following liberalisation. :)
India's population density is nearly 3 times that of China though (note for sad dbug whose only interest in this thread seems to be stalking me - I didn't count them all, I looked it up on the web)
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Cem, you were very lucky to have the right visionary man in the right place at the right time.
Modern Germany would not be the industrial powerhouse it is if they had also not had the right man at the right time at the end of WWII. Ludwig Erhard had a profound effect on how Western German recovered economically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Erhard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Erhard)
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Cem, you were very lucky to have the right visionary man in the right place at the right time.
Modern Germany would not be the industrial powerhouse it is if they had also not had the right man at the right time at the end of WWII. Ludwig Erhard had a profound effect on how Western German recovered economically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Erhard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Erhard)
With lots and lots of cheap labourers from... :D
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Cem, you were very lucky to have the right visionary man in the right place at the right time.
Modern Germany would not be the industrial powerhouse it is if they had also not had the right man at the right time at the end of WWII. Ludwig Erhard had a profound effect on how Western German recovered economically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Erhard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Erhard)
With lots and lots of cheap labourers from... :D
yep.. from our country.. and there are lots of bad stories how they behaved to our workers :(
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now watching the tv , there are lots of discussion forums organized in parks in every city..
and do you know whats the worst side of having an incompetent , incapable pm ?
now everyone thinks I can be a pm , so we have 80 million pm candidates ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D :-\
someone must tell them that no one can be a pm by a strong mouth ;D